[BIG REQUEST] Big games support

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:55 pm

For arrays, I'm with @Fimbul, I can't comprehend why they aren't a primitive, but looking at it on another angle, C2 is supposed to be easy to use for a beginner, but with arrays comes dynamic resizing, clearing, manipulations (pushing, popping and such) and those are all available via events (like doing a double-for loop for clearing) but that is not something you can gulp easily (double-forloops, ok, but pushing or popping, good luck), so yeah, it goes counter to the design of using C2 without any programming experience, +that would make C2 more of a written language too and that's not what it is (Even if I want CScript so badly :P)

Anyways, nice list!
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Post » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:09 pm

This kind of topics make me smile. C2 is already very accessible and customisable development tool. You can develop any 2d game genre and even more by using only event system. I don't even speak about this huge amount of 3rd party plugins and behaviors and awesome official multiplayer functionality. Everything is based on cutting edge web technologies. You guys are searching for a magic button.
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Post » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:42 am

I agree with some topics and not others Fimbul.

I agree we need more of the core Functions need to be made as Primitives as string/number already are. Functions and Array absolutely especially Function.

However I gotta say you need to pull up your sleeves and do some work. many of your requests require code writing programmers to do all the time, often with no benefit. All they have are lines of code and then they have to compile and execute. There are no visual tools and inspectors. In fact C2 has probably the most robust API of any game language ever. And yet there is complaint that it doesn't do AI, Isometric so on so forth. Fimbul most API's don't do what C2 does at all. they are first and foremost renderers and 3d/2d mathematical apis.

Check out Three.js, jaws.js, Pixl.js, Craft.js, Unity API, not a single one of these game engines can hold a match to C2 inferno in comparison of API. If you want to look at extensions done by other people then that's another matter, but that same principle applies here. Some one has done AI works, Isometric tiles and more. These other groups have produced massive games from rudimentary api's that have zero to no game logic and still pull of games like World of Warcraft.

Most of C2's limitations aren't limitations to the majority of gaming industry. Because once they get to work they aren't waiting on Ashley to do the grunt work for them.

However even after saying that. I agree with design decision haven't always been the best.

Here are my main requests
Functions and Array as primitives like the Number/String
Modularity through Groups
Asset store
C2 IDE inherently group development tool.
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Post » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:04 am

Just asking. How would Function and Array be different as primitives. Would it still be possible to add Array to containers.
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Post » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:45 pm

@Jayderyu is kinda right, C2 is just an API wrapped into a GUI (kinda...), it's not supposed to give a solution to everything in game programming, it's doing it's best to do so but you need to learn to get your hands dirty, C2 gives you the tools, but some of the tools you'll need to build them yourself and learn new stuff or you can buy 'em at Canadian Tires (Or at an asset store), all for your game's sake

+999 for the assets store, Unity has one, and it's a blast, Ashley could always take a percentage of the sales for C2's development and everyone would be happy! @Tom & @Ashley what do you guys think ?
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Post » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:52 pm

@Katala
Well if Functions and Array were simlar primitives in C2 then that would be over all beneficial.

Instead of Array.ValueAt(0,0,0) or even worse if your using instance arrays
Compare Array.id = "arrayname" to get a specific array in an SOL to use.

you can just use
array[0,0,0] in your expressions. which is the way all programming languages access array data.
or
array[0,1,1] = some data

same with Functions
instead of
Function.call("functin name", p0,p1,p2)
it would be
functionname(p0, p1, p2)

In expressions the variable name is in expressions list. This makes using variable names impossible to use if you spell them wrong. The expression won't let you exit unless the var name is correct. Where as Functions require you to use a "string" paramater. So it's possible to use the wrong string name. Also when you change a variable name the change is caries over through the rest of C2. Where as in Function that's not the case. If you change a Function calling name you need to go manually change it everywhere.

This would also lead to better scoping of functions.
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Post » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:10 am

jayderyu wrote:However I gotta say you need to pull up your sleeves and do some work. many of your requests require code writing programmers to do all the time, often with no benefit. All they have are lines of code and then they have to compile and execute. There are no visual tools and inspectors. In fact C2 has probably the most robust API of any game language ever. And yet there is complaint that it doesn't do AI, Isometric so on so forth. Fimbul most API's don't do what C2 does at all. they are first and foremost renderers and 3d/2d mathematical apis.

@Whiteclaws and @jayderyu:
I'm not saying Ashley should create a build-your-own-ai interface. I'm saying the plugin SDK should be good enough for me to create that myself.
jayderyu wrote:Check out Three.js, jaws.js, Pixl.js, Craft.js, Unity API, not a single one of these game engines can hold a match to C2 inferno in comparison of API. If you want to look at extensions done by other people then that's another matter, but that same principle applies here. Some one has done AI works, Isometric tiles and more. These other groups have produced massive games from rudimentary api's that have zero to no game logic and still pull of games like World of Warcraft.

These other frameworks are flexible enough to allow you to use your own formats, and allow you to build your own tools - what is called a "pipeline". Do you think WOW programmers did everything in code? No! They obviously built their own map editors, dialogue editors, and everything else they needed to make a game.
My point is that C2 is very impenetrable if you want to build your own tools to help you make your game - right now the only option is to crack open the XML files it generates and hope you didn't have a syntax error somewhere. I want ashley to make an IDE SDK so that I can make my own integrated editors to use inside C2.

jayderyu wrote:Most of C2's limitations aren't limitations to the majority of gaming industry. Because once they get to work they aren't waiting on Ashley to do the grunt work for them.

Yes! Yes a thousand times this!
The problem with C2 is that, often, when you run into a problem, you have to wait for Ashley to fix it. There are no official ways to fix things yourself. It's too focused on beginners, and advanced users (those who know javascript, even if just a little) are left wanting.

Now you may ask, "hey, fimbul, why don't you use pixi.js instead?". I could do that - I know programming enough that I'm confident I could code an engine in pixi. However, I like the eventing system, I like the webgl effects, I like being able to easily change properties of my project, and have minification and png-compression. I like having Ashley focusing on performance while I cruise by.

Look at how powerful unity's extensions are: you could implement construct 2 as a unity plugin if you wanted! Now look at how pitiful c2's plugin SDK is.

jayderyu wrote:Here are my main requests
Functions and Array as primitives like the Number/String
Modularity through Groups
Asset store
C2 IDE inherently group development tool.

We are in agreement. Also agree with your proposal for how function syntax should work. I also want to add that, since arrays are primitives, you'd be able to pass arrays as parameters to functions - that would rock!
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Post » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:06 am

"These other frameworks are flexible enough to allow you to use your own formats, and allow you to build your own tools - what is called a "pipeline". Do you think WOW programmers did everything in code? No! They obviously built their own map editors, dialogue editors, and everything else they needed to make a game.
My point is that C2 is very impenetrable if you want to build your own tools to help you make your game - right now the only option is to crack open the XML files it generates and hope you didn't have a syntax error somewhere. I want ashley to make an IDE SDK so that I can make my own integrated editors to use inside C2."

When I do a "big" thing in C2, I create my own formats and tools inside C2 (HTML5 based tools), based on string elements, and I use a decoder Event sheet that take the file, interpret it so the game can use it, maybe I am missing the point here..

"The problem with C2 is that, often, when you run into a problem, you have to wait for Ashley to fix it. There are no official ways to fix things yourself. It's too focused on beginners, and advanced users (those who know javascript, even if just a little) are left wanting."

The problem with letting the user correct themselves is that at the end, I'm pretty sure the bugs wouldn't be reported (I know people that won't report a bug even when they know it perfectly, they prefer to wait, imagine if you give them ways to workaround.....)

@Fimbul
Game design is all about decomposing the core of your game so it becomes simple instructions.
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Post » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:32 am

A lot of those negatives are possible to do, but it requires some programming knowledge or clever usage of variables. It should be labeled as "hard to do" rather than anything else imo.

Look at this and be in awe of the UI, inventory, unit AI:
gangster-tactics-pile-them-in_t99895
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Post » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:12 pm

@Silverforce, yes, but said would be much simpler if post two's suggestions were a reality, I can see how C2 was geared to beginners from the beginning and was designed with that ideology, you could make any game with it, but limitations are imposed, CC was open source, I think, but C2 is paid, I can understand why it's closed source, but Ashley needs to give more love to extensibility
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