Construct 2 - Realistic State after 1 gazilion downloads

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:25 pm

Founded on Reddit:

"I personally love MMF2 but unfortunately ran into heavy performance snags whenever I exported to Android. Things that just simply shouldn't happen like having more than 10 objects move at one time causing frame stutter. I was spending more time debugging and working around its limitations than producing so I had to switch. Still I highly recommend it for prototyping and or PC development."

"Thanks! One or two of Construct creators used to be pretty involved with MMF2, and I guess they had enough of the limitations and bugs and did something about it. They're both very similar in terms of event scripting though, and both have their ups and downs."

"That would be Ashley Cullen, or Tigerworks as he was known back then. He had an RTS game made in MMF2 (Terminal Orbit) in the works for a few years, but it was never released. I remember he started developing plugins to help in the creation of it, which I guess is what led him to start Construct."

http://www.create-games.com/project.asp?id=89
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:32 pm

szymek wrote:Other issue is that events are going in one big loop,
so 100 events may be good for simple game,
but 10.000 events (I guess) could kill even desktop


Then you're doing it wrong. There's no reason to loop through every event every tick.

szymek wrote:also bullet behavior that isn't 100% smooth both on mobile/desktop


Sure it is. Look at your code and see what's slowing it down.

szymek wrote:also saying "use Crosswalk" is not serious at this moment
and +18MB apk size can dramatically decrease number of downloads on Google Play


It's not 5 years ago. 18MB is nothing. The last mobile game I downloaded was 100+MB, and some larger titles top 1GB.

szymek wrote:but yeah... anyway: there is no competition with anything similar to event sheets


The new version of Stencyl is mobile-friendly and no longer limited to Flash only export, if you're looking for a C2 alternative. Though having used both and compared the upsides/downsides, C2 is an easy choice. If you hate yourself, there's also GameSalad, but I wouldn't recommend that to my worst enemy. MMF and Gamemaker don't have the featureset or ease of use while still allowing some semblance of commonly coding syntax of C2 either. They do a little, but not to the extent of C2. If you've ever done real development, this makes getting up to speed on how things work an extremely fast excercise.

As for Unity: I've also got a Pro license for Unity. Have since v2 was first released. I use it on an almost-daily basis for non-game projects for my day job (freelance interactive designer/developer). And when I was looking at the best choice to make the 2D game project I'm currently working on, I chose to use C2. And I've yet to find a better 2D solution for desktop (my target for my current project) or modern mobile devices that both allows me to reach the level of quality I'm reaching for and still have the kind of control I require over how things work while still abstracting some of the low-level code that I'd prefer not to have to deal with. HTML5 may not be 100% perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than Flash (which I've used for animation since it was called FutureSplash, and for development since Flash 3) in both performance and ease of use. In fact, this debate over HTML5 isn't drastically different from what Flash itself had to go through in terms of acceptance.

I'm not the type of a person to be a software apologist - I have no personal loyalty to any bits of code - but if you don't think you can make a full-fledged 2D release with C2 that has the potential to be competitive in a tough market, then you're doing it wrong and it's not the software's fault.
Last edited by digitalsoapbox on Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:38 pm

lwgames wrote:
I understand you cannot make a native exporter, but why the hell we dont have a non native official exporter like crosswalk after 2 years?

1) You lost lots of money which you could earn by selling this addon and support your community too.
2) Lost of sale and made your customer base knock on doors...
This is goin nowhere, ill just stop posting on this matter...i am already derailing... every time Ashley talks about HTML 5 future, i get a headache.


Because there's no point in having one when JS is interpreted at near-native speeds. "Near-native" being a technical term for "nobody can tell the difference in practice so don't pretend you can."

1) Uh, what? Sell add-ons if you want, but if your goal is to make money w/ add-ons, your best bet is Unity. C2 is for making games.
2) Why would you lose sales? Why would you blame the software when you didn't design it properly for the target hardware?

If you're getting a headache, it's due to the cognitive dissonance between what you're being told is true and what you'd prefer to believe is true. HTML5 is fine and there's a reason support for it on desktop, mobile and console - MAJOR consoles of the NEW generation now ALL support HTML5-based games & applications - has been very rapidly increasing for the past few years.

lwgames wrote:"That being said, an outlook to the future cannot solve current problems" it was the same retoric 2 years ago, HTML 5 will be great in the next years, it will be the holy grail, 2 years later, well HTML 5 will be great in the future... Yes, i am sure it will have a big place on the market, not as big as Scirra and other bloggers like to promote, at least not at first, but what about now? What we do now that we bought this software? We makes games that the engines wants, but not those that engines promotes that we can. You really should remove that marketing crap from the landing page, its so deceiving. "It can export to ALL platforms here, but * with some problems lol.


You don't know what you're talking about. At all. HTML5 + JS is a sign from the heavens that development, game or otherwise, doesn't always have to be a giant pain in the ass. And WebGL? Holy cow. Have you ever tried to write a straight OpenGL fragment shader? I'd rather pull my toenails out with pliers, but how elegantly it's handled through WebGL/C2 is a breath of fresh air.
Last edited by digitalsoapbox on Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:43 pm

@Arima "I don't recall reading about this. How it would work?"
Well The real strength of C2 when it's been compacted to the C2runtime.js isn't the JS it's the API. After the code is "compiled" it's link to the C2 IDE is non existent. There is no reverse enginearing back to C2 EventSheet XML. In fact once "compiled" the result is no different in structure than most other programming languages.

Know that C2's other strength is that the api is mindblowing robust. Unity probably the words biggest engine has nothing on C2 behaviours and plugins. I don't stay and hold my belief that C2 HTML5 technology is great. I hold that C2 IDE and API are fantastic and that in given time Ashley is right; there won't be problems... but they linger for now.

However in the mean time JS code is just code and can be reversed engineered to another language. *cough* Java/C#. *cough*. It is doable. However I think after some thought when I brought the subject up. Is that while all the plugins are converted to compact effecient code and can be convereted without too much trouble. The break down is supporting all the other browser parts(DOM, WebGL, Canvas2D, WebSockets, WebRTC, AdvancedAudio, Controller, Keyboard, Touch, Vibrate, General Browser Features). Those browser parts don't convert to convertable code. Instead the "wrapper" would have to once again write all those browser parts and if your doing that you have practically built another browser.

The big benefit of such a task is the code truly won't be JS anymore it would OS machine compiled. C#Win8, java for Andoird, Objective C for iOS and Mac, C++ for Widnows/Linux.
...
you know what would really be super cool as I was just thinking about this. What if we/I/someone else created a gaming cloud based converter. let me explain the theory.

someone puts up a piece of working code. Identifies the language.
Then the converter attempts to start converting.
When the converter get's stuck; the converter then posts a help request. Posting what piece of code it got stuck on.
Then others can examine the problem and write a solution. This includes a slow way to flesh out the api.
When a solution is given the converter will take all solutions given in a period of time and test the performance. Keeping the fastest and or more memory effecient.

Now the effort of conversion would be a lot of work for 1 person or a group, but what about hundreds or thousands.. That would be a nifty idea. JS has not effect converters to another language. This would be a nifty experiment.


"Yes there is, I have no ability to code traditionally at all."
You got me there big time :P... however I guess someoen is apparently trying to make a compiler. Kudo's to him. I think it's a huge effort, but I'm voting the best for him :)


huh, I forgot to hit the post button last night.*
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:03 pm

Hate to sound like an ass as always seems to happen, but I notice these threads usually wind up revealing the need for better game logic.
Perhaps whats needed is some sort of program that teaches how to do events properly. Something complete with site badges and all.
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:11 pm

szymek wrote:Founded on Reddit:

"I personally love MMF2 but unfortunately ran into heavy performance snags whenever I exported to Android. Things that just simply shouldn't happen like having more than 10 objects move at one time causing frame stutter. I was spending more time debugging and working around its limitations than producing so I had to switch. Still I highly recommend it for prototyping and or PC development."

"Thanks! One or two of Construct creators used to be pretty involved with MMF2, and I guess they had enough of the limitations and bugs and did something about it. They're both very similar in terms of event scripting though, and both have their ups and downs."

"That would be Ashley Cullen, or Tigerworks as he was known back then. He had an RTS game made in MMF2 (Terminal Orbit) in the works for a few years, but it was never released. I remember he started developing plugins to help in the creation of it, which I guess is what led him to start Construct."

http://www.create-games.com/project.asp?id=89


I was referring to MMF3 not 2, which is apparently a complete rewrite. My statement was also based on a presumption that the software is as good as it sounds, whether Clickteam have actually learned from their past mistakes is yet to be seem, but there is a lot of new blood working for them now so who knows. I do get the feeling though that Ashley has more of an imagination and understands better the needs of a game developer in terms of editor features etc.
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:15 pm

newt wrote:Hate to sound like an ass as always seems to happen, but I notice these threads usually wind up revealing the need for better game logic.
Perhaps whats needed is some sort of program that teaches how to do events properly. Something complete with site badges and all.


I like how sound it...

Anyway I think really that a lot of nice performance and pulish is due the good job you code with C2... I love C2 and how works, but I think the editor is able to improve with integrate tutor or help when you are coding...
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:17 pm

newt wrote:Hate to sound like an ass as always seems to happen, but I notice these threads usually wind up revealing the need for better game logic.
Perhaps whats needed is some sort of program that teaches how to do events properly. Something complete with site badges and all.


I think this is a great idea, it could help everyone, begginer and also more advanced people

I second this

also I have read "open" instead of "happen" the first time, that sounded weird
Game design is all about decomposing the core of your game so it becomes simple instructions.
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:09 pm

Perhaps whats needed is some sort of program that teaches how to do events properly


This is a great idea...as long as you could turn it off if you wanted.

It seems like the core concept of construct is to have an easier learning curve, and a more streamlined workflow. Having some built in context sensitive feedback would be a great way to teach new users good practices.

And, it would be great for more seasoned user working on larger games, where it's easy to miss something redundant among hundreds or even thousands of events.

AND, since C2 is making a point of targeting schools and educational institutions as well, this would help take some of the load off of teachers by empowering students to solve simpler problems by themselves.

Basically, it would help everyone.

Maybe start with some simple 'gothcha's', like

'Hey, you know you tested the same two objects for collision in this other event, right?'

'You have the same loop over here, redundant loops can really slow things down'

'You are filtering your instances before testing for collisions; this forces brute force collisions and will result in worse performance in most cases.'


I could see how this could be annoying if done wrong, but generally striking a balance between ease-of-use and depth-of-control seems to be a strong point for Ashley.

:idea: P.S.

What would REALLY make this feature awesome is if you could generate a project-wide report with potential glitches, errors, and warnings.

Maybe Ashley can add it to his todo list. Which reminds me: how many file cabinets does that thing take up now? :mrgreen:
Don't lose your work. Backup your game with Dropbox.
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Post » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:13 pm

@Ashley

I agree with @lwgames about all the 'future' talk being rather unpleasant. It's not that I disagree about the 'future', but people are buying C2 now with certain promises about what they can do now on your page, which turn into expectations about what they can do now, and many of them are trying to do this professionally. Notice how many times the word 'now' appears in the sentence above. The fact that your response is "Just wait until some indeterminate time in the future until some third parties fix the problems you are having" is not very reassuring. I think acting as if the people don't understand the complexity in making your own exporter or the limitation involved is both condescending and dodging the real problem which is that in the first place it is you guys who are creating these complain threads by leading people to believe that C2 can produce monetizable mobile games reliably NOW and not at some indeterminate time in the future when Intel and ludei get around to it, possibly maybe. Forget the performance, there are key features not working now on mobile, often times the entire game. The fact that people paid you money for those features and your response is "maybe intel will fix it" is probably not what they had in mind. Certainly they weren't expecting to pay you so they can beta-test your product.

Anyway I guess given your response the only sane thing to do is finish my simple 'test' game - that is, if intel and chrome mobile ever get around to fixing simple sound issues that they themselves probably don't have high on a priority list - and take the advice of some of the forum regulars and go play with unity and check back in a few years and see if Crosswalk is a more complete product. Posting about these issues seems to be an exercise in futility since it's inevitably turned to "omg fill rate of mobile devices is low" or something like that ignoring the many problems that have nothing to do with it.
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