Disappointed over bad communications!!!

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:04 pm

You should not blame beta releases, because that's what they are "beta releases". It's quite normal for them to have bugs.
As of the rest... I really do not care anymore, after all posts I made and read :D
I'm just glad I'm working on a project that don't need high or steady fps to work, but current wrappers situation (that lasts 3 or 4 months already!) is just a big lol.

Q3D is nice and all, but it's just too damn confusing. I bought it, tried to understand it for whole week and then I gave up. Now if I need some 3d for desktops I'm happily using UE4, where things do work like I want them to work and always at 60 steady frames per second for me and others. So yeah C2 is currently my tool for making small, stupid and slow mobile and web games.
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:09 pm

Nesteris wrote:I think what is happening to Construct 2 is basically what happened to Construct Classic. It's buggy, unfinished but Ashley has moved on to Construct 3, leaving behind an unfinished product with which only a handful of developers, if even that, made a succeeded game with.


There's a lovely thread but kind find it now, about Node Webkit working "fine". There's a lot of nice posts in there about C2, exporters, and almost very same thing like in this thread. As far as I can remember, the ultimate answer to everything was something like "it's just a bug, they will fix it (chromium team) eventually". And guess what? They did. They fixed it. Everything was perfect.... for two or maybe three months :D
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:13 pm

To be fair, construct 2 works really well in browsers. The major complaints i see are with people using construct 2 for mobile games, a place they will not excel because of hardware constraints that make even java-script itself perform poorly. If you want to make a game for mobile with javascript you absolutely have to scale back and be very frugal with the resources you use.

Mobile games aren't complicated, and that's because you really need to develop them from the ground up to get any kind of good performance. Making a complicated mobile game in C2 is easy, however it wont work because it's too complicated. The more difficult an engine is to work with, usually the better the performance you can squeeze out of it but the slower your development will be, ESPECIALLY if you are inexperienced.

You could very easily code a fast HTML5 game for mobile, however you wont have the wonderful abilities like picking which construct allows you to use, you'd have to build the game in an optimized manner. If your game is GPU bottlenecked, then that's going to be a problem no matter what. There's a lot of inexperienced developers using C2 (which is understandable) and they end up complaining that their game is working poorly because it works on desktop "just fine" but dies on a mobile platform. The only answer that can be given is that their game is trying to do too much, regardless of if it's doing "a lot less" than other games they've seen on the platform.

As an example, anyone familiar with demoscenes will understand that some people can squeeze a ton out of very little. Take for example classic c64 games and their graphics, and compare them to some of the more impressive demos for c64:

demos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90AEamQCLog
vs.
games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdwIIF51MIM

A lot of low level optimizations that have to do with using smart memory structures and reusing data in an intelligent way mean you can get "way more" out of something. This is what mobile developers manage, even if they're using html5+javascript from the ground up, vs construct. Construct 2 will allow you to very easily trim down recursively through lists of objects with picking conditions / actions, however the fact this is used everywhere to make events "easy to use" means the performance suffers, ESPECIALLY on weaker platforms where performance is constrained. Things like "creating" and "destroying" in construct are very high level and generally expensive even with the recycling systems in place. They're general so that when something is gone it's gone and everything knows it's gone, however this is expensive compared to just pretending something is gone and controlling at a low level. In most cases a game with limited actors could much more efficiently be constructed by having a short array of references and never having to really pick anything.

To top things off, most people abuse the hell out of collision detection in construct since they have a poor understanding of the costs associated with it and the mechanisms behind it's operation. It's very easy to blindly apply collision detection throughout code for repeated conditions, but really most engines have a SINGLE collision detection run per frame because it's so expensive, when in construct you can end up with many many many collision detections per frame, which make things "tighter" at tremendous cost. Behaviors are also a big issue because of how general they are, the expense they incur quickly adds up.

If you want great performance, you need a powerful platform, or you need to fine tune your game from the ground up, there's no magic bullet and complaints are misdirected for the most part.

@shinkan

Q3D is confusing because of the limited editor SDK of C2, so if people want powerful plugins with good editor integration, im afraid supporting C3 development is the only way they can do it... Regardless Q3D is constantly improving, and hopefully i'll have time to get some documentation out after the next update which finalizes a lot. I can guarantee using Q3D is way easier than trying to make a 3D WebGL game directly, and it works quite well at achieving that goal. In any case UE4 and Q3D have entirely different purposes, UE4 doesn't really work in browsers, regardless of what their poor HTML5 emscripten demos that barely work try to prove, they really aren't trying to make an engine for WebGL.
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:31 pm

QuaziGNRLnose wrote:Q3D is confusing because of the limited editor SDK of C2, so if people want powerful plugins with good editor integration, im afraid supporting C3 development is the only way they can do it... Regardless Q3D is constantly improving, and hopefully i'll have time to get some documentation out after the next update which finalizes a lot. I can guarantee using Q3D is way easier than trying to make a 3D WebGL game directly, and it works quite well at achieving that goal.


I'm all aware of that my friend. You have put tremendous amount of work to make this plugin happen and it is really great and powerful . But unfortunately, currently C2 is not making it any easier to use. I never found your plugin hard to use - speaking about event logic. But rather what confuses me a lot is C2 editor itself, placing 3d object in 2d inverted space is not fun for me at all. That's why I stopped using it, not because it's bad but because it takes too much time from me to set things right. That's why for time being I choose UE4 to do 3d stuff only cause i can do what I want faster and in full 3d space. I know I could build myself a nice 3d editor in C2 and use it to for my needs, but that's not the point here. I really hope I could use Q3D in a nice environment :)

"Mobile games aren't complicated, and that's because you really need to develop them from the ground up to get any kind of good performance."

And that is true as well, people tends to forget about that. But again current crosswalk do not help making even that easier, while having problems with almost empty projects :D
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:33 pm

3D is by its very nature just confusing in General and building a Realtime Engine that will satisfy People is a whole different story as well so don't just think it's that easily done. I think a new Editor with a better SDK may lead to better Exporters being developed but i'm technically not clever enough to really say this... But one things for sure: a dedicated 3D Engine like Unity with something like Playmaker might be the better Solution. I went to school for 3D Animation and i can tell you that the workload is quite a different story especially for one-man shows so i think Construct should stick to what its best at which is 2D.

If someone really is unhappy with how things develop though maybe they should look at other Options out there?
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:40 pm

3D is not confusing. All you need to do, is to know what you want to do and how you want to do it. It's simple as that.
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:43 pm

Okay let me rephrase: compared to 2D it adds a lot of complexity, agreed? ;)
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:45 pm

Yup, Now i can agree to that statement ;)
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:10 pm

Is geometry confusing?
A little.
Is trig confusing?
[email protected]$k yes.
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Post » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:19 pm

QuaziGNRLnose wrote:To top things off, most people abuse the hell out of collision detection in construct since they have a poor understanding of the costs associated with it and the mechanisms behind it's operation. It's very easy to blindly apply collision detection throughout code for repeated conditions, but really most engines have a SINGLE collision detection run per frame because it's so expensive, when in construct you can end up with many many many collision detections per frame, which make things "tighter" at tremendous cost. Behaviors are also a big issue because of how general they are, the expense they incur quickly adds up.
.


As far as I remember, C2 compiles those in to one list on export/preview.
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