Disappointed over bad communications!!!

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:34 pm

@Aphrodite - thanks for writing this, that gives me a bit of a better understanding.


But lets take Unity games exported for mobiles for example. They run great, and i see a lot of cool games being made with it. Are they using html5, or is it javascript or something native-like?

Still a bit confused, sorry :D
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:45 pm

@xanxion my guess is that unity games are compiled with a custom compiler (or whatever it is called), which removes the browser issues entirely, after all, compilation is the way to do an executable.

C2 does not create an executable, it just place an executable that reads the web game (that is true for every single export method of C2), and wrappers in the context of C2 are:

-chrome (nw.js, for windows linux and mac os)
-chrome for android (crosswalk)
-chrome for android (cordova on android 5)
-something else on iOS8, not sure we can call it safari as the engine may be different (cordova)

Nothing is direct, and those wrappers can change (which explains why it worked sort of fine until chrome 44)

Where others are generally compiled, so direct (sorta, there are still the drivers in between) communication between the game and the hardware, no variations over time apart from a buggy driver, but since that can affect the entire system you can imagine they are careful enough to not break everythign as much from one update to another (Can still happen, but would happen also with the wrapper layer).

Unity can do html5 games too i think, but those are meant to run inside a browser and not to look like executables (and that is the way it should have been for C2 too I think).
Game design is all about decomposing the core of your game so it becomes simple instructions.
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:47 pm

In relation to native running better then wrapped ...

Ashley wrote:... the overhead of the Javascript language is too much ....


Basically, this ...



In relation to the topic, (bad communication), I think everyone is at fault here ...

-Users, not reading enough ...

-Scirra, making its users dream a bit too big.


Most of the users here come here with the intention to make mobile games, without coding skills, as so advertised.
Sadly, there are a lot of limitations one can only know upfront by .... reading.


@Ashley .....

*gives a pat on the back*
Who dares wins
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:53 pm

Nesteris wrote:How is it that people making basic 2D games with three objects, from what I ready correctly, is getting 1FPS on mobile?

I have still not seen any actual evidence for this. I regularly run performance tests on mobile like sbperftest and particles, and they often run close to 60 FPS on a range of mobile devices. I wrote about my frustration over this earlier in the thread: so far people have talked about games that run at 1 FPS, but not provided any way for me to do anything about it, such as by providing a .capx.

You also talk about audio issues: I am not aware of any ongoing audio issues, so please file bugs so I can investigate, otherwise there is simply nothing I can do. Everything I have seen is that audio works fine across all platforms, perhaps except for some bugs in the latest beta releases (but that's what beta releases are for, to work out issues that arise from changes before they make the stable channel).

szymek wrote:so why do games wrapped with CocoonJS Canvas+ are faster than games wrapped with Crosswalk?

I don't know, it's a closed source engine. Canvas+ was broken in a lot of ways, so perhaps they took shortcuts that broke things. Our experience with Construct Classic firmly proved that it is far better to have a slightly slower engine that works correctly, than a faster one that breaks. Reliability is essential, and it's often possible to optimise things at the expense of reliability, which is something that happened in Classic, and it wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happened with Canvas+.

and why even the simpliest projects can't work 100% smooth in Crosswalk?

Probably because of the recent bug, which is not a fundamental issue with C2, its engine, HTML5 or anything other than the Chromium browser engine, which is constantly being worked on and should be fixed at some point.
Scirra Founder
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:12 pm

@Aphrodite

Thanks for the read, that makes sense to me now!
Interesting stuff, might try to read up some more on this stuff.

So we are basically hoping that the Chrome browser will improve and be developed with games in mind, and not something else!
- and if chrome someday, shuts down, or make radical changes. Then we are all screwed :D
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:13 pm

I wish I could get rich fast, go back in time and rain money on Scirra when they were still at CC stage. And stop the HTML path to even come to existence. Even consideration.
You guys know the saying "Jack of All Trades - Master of none"? Because that's basically C2 right now.
I would much more prefer to have a pure desktop engine rather then this browser/mobile/desktop octopus. I don't give a flying F if the engine can export to all platforms in existence, if the game runs like shit. Instead, I prefer to have one export platform that runs flawless. Just as it was with very powerful CC.
C2 suffers from the same illness from which the CC had died. Features clusterfrak. Features that had been implemented but never truly done/polished. Instead, new features had been added on top of previous. I don't care how many armwatches I have if none of them shows the correct time. HTML5 might be the future - sure. But we are living in the Present.
And in present day, my game Antumbra (which is basically a modern version of old text games) which is probably the most simple code-wise game in existence had troubles running on various setups. So instead of working on Antumbra 2 or another game - I've spent last 3 weeks of my life debugging people PC's. And in most cases the problem was not in my game or even the user machine (old drivers, trashy reg) but in html5. The users browser and the OS, to put it bluntly. And its not even about browsers that do not support HTML5 because I've blacklisted those. So Antumbra can be played only in IE,FF or Chrome.
And I cannot even point at ONE of them, because the game has some serious problems in various versions of the SAME browser. On one Chrome version the game never loads. On another - runs flawlessly. On one IE version the game runs better then in FF or Chrome. But in another - there is no sound. No audio - at all. And yes - I do have all my audio in both ogg and m4a. Sometimes the game fails to load, other time it freezes, different case - it runs on 10-30fps. And I am pretty sure its not my fault because if a bug exist - it can be replicated. It'll be present on all platforms or at least in scope of one browser. So bug report after bug report, I have to keep on telling people that "I will look into it and fix it ASAP! :D ", when the truth is - I cant do shit about it, because I have no power over Google or Scirra. I can just sit and watch and pray for a miracle to happened. I will use C2 for Antumbra 2 because I have no time to get familiar with UE4 right now, so I have to go with the engine I know the best. Not the one that might perform the best.
I am not pointing fingers. Just sharing my story.

Sidenote: actually browsers are not that better then mobiles right now. No official plugin for Newgrounds (and the one we have is 3rd party and buggy as hell), Kong plugin is not up to date to say the least, Gamejolt is great but... well, Gamejolt is really not the place to look for money heh. And it's also 3rd party plugin anyway. Sooo...
Mobiles: hardly working beside the most simple design and even then is a Russian roulette
Desktops: forget about Linux and Mac. If you use any other NW then 10.5 you are screwed on Windows too. WinXP is out of the question.
Browsers: Russian Roulette chapter II.
I don't know who I should blame and at this point it doesn't really matter. What matters is the solution that is no where to be found.

Sidenote 2: I would really love to see a true game made by Scirra team. Of course with C2. As a proof. Because in many cases I think they really don't know what are we talking about. So maybe if they would have to walk in our shoes for bit... You know. To gain some perspective, that I think they are lacking.

Sidenote 3: I am not attacking, trolling or hating. I just think something must be done, and instead - we are playing this "ping-pong" discussion and wasting time. Pure whining never solved anything. And neither did excuses. Maybe lets stop talking and get busy, huh?
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:29 pm

irbis wrote:Sidenote 2: I would really love to see a true game made by Scirra team. Of course with C2. As a proof. Because in many cases I think they really don't know what are we talking about. So maybe if they would have to walk in our shoes for bit... You know. To gain some perspective, that I think they are lacking.

Ooor... people could start providing capx'es of their projects to Ashley that highlight their grief, like he's been asking for repeatedly. Seems to me like Ashley really wants to put these issues to rest (naturally) but needs some concrete material, i.e. real-life projects, to diagnose them.
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:37 pm

@ErekT the is exactly what I get out of his invitation. Hence I sent my own game off to him for performance evaluation, and I'll be waiting a few business days, hopefully. :)
When Ashley gives out how own email address, I feel like there is not much excuse left to complain.

On the other hand, I think a mobile game by Scirra themselves would be convincing. They take all the design and suggestions of 3rd party solutions and DIY a game.
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:46 pm

xanxion wrote:@Aphrodite

Thanks for the read, that makes sense to me now!
Interesting stuff, might try to read up some more on this stuff.

So we are basically hoping that the Chrome browser will improve and be developed with games in mind, and not something else!
- and if chrome someday, shuts down, or make radical changes. Then we are all screwed :D


If chrome shuts down, there are other browser engines that technically could be used so not really screwed, to be honest, we (by that I mean the people using wrappers) should already be looking for other alternatives for chromium, and since C2 is not a chrome only engine but an html5 one, it should be doable.

@irbis agreed on the fact some features are below what people might expect, and that sticking to one platform would have been better (I would have prefer sticking to pure html5 for the Web platform rather than trying to look like native, as it is primarily advertised as such, but that is just an opinion, now it is a mess, and wrappers can be just worse than Web, either way, something has to be done, right now it seems that the Web platform, the heart of C2, is something none of the actors want to improve, instead of having a valid Web platform, we have this nonsense )

Agreed also on a scirra full game, would be nice to prove us wrong on all fronts while knowing where we have issues.
Game design is all about decomposing the core of your game so it becomes simple instructions.
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Post » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:49 pm

ErekT wrote:
irbis wrote:Sidenote 2: I would really love to see a true game made by Scirra team. Of course with C2. As a proof. Because in many cases I think they really don't know what are we talking about. So maybe if they would have to walk in our shoes for bit... You know. To gain some perspective, that I think they are lacking.

Ooor... people could start providing capx'es of their projects to Ashley that highlight their grief, like he's been asking for repeatedly. Seems to me like Ashley really wants to put these issues to rest (naturally) but needs some concrete material, i.e. real-life projects, to diagnose them.

Oooor both.

Aphrodite wrote:
xanxion wrote:@Aphrodite

Thanks for the read, that makes sense to me now!
Interesting stuff, might try to read up some more on this stuff.

So we are basically hoping that the Chrome browser will improve and be developed with games in mind, and not something else!
- and if chrome someday, shuts down, or make radical changes. Then we are all screwed :D


If chrome shuts down, there are other browser engines that technically could be used so not really screwed, to be honest, we (by that I mean the people using wrappers) should already be looking for other alternatives for chromium, and since C2 is not a chrome only engine but an html5 one, it should be doable.

@irbis agreed on the fact some features are below what people might expect, and that sticking to one platform would have been better (I would have prefer sticking to pure html5 for the Web platform rather than trying to look like native, as it is primarily advertised as such, but that is just an opinion, now it is a mess, and wrappers can be just worse than Web, either way, something has to be done, right now it seems that the Web platform, the heart of C2, is something none of the actors want to improve, instead of having a valid Web platform, we have this nonsense )

Agreed also on a scirra full game, would be nice to prove us wrong on all fronts while knowing where we have issues.

I fully agree. Regardless will it be mobile or browsers or desktop. Don't worry about me. I'll adjust. I have more ideas for games then my human life span will enable me to create anyway haha. Lets just focus...
Last edited by irbis on Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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