Disappointed over bad communications!!!

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:35 pm

Again, this is very frustrating, I still have no evidence at all of any slowdown with the Physics behavior. Mozilla have done benchmarks of the asm.js version that show it performs within 1.5x of native performance. Until I see evidence to back up claims that physics is slow, I can only assume you are either using physics so intensively that a native engine would struggle, or that really something else is the problem.

Some people blame the Platform behavior for being slow too. Likewise, I have no evidence of this.

I think there is a tendency to blame things for being slow without really understanding what is happening. If you think something is slow, use measurements to demonstrate, and share your results and the .capx you used.
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Post » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:10 pm

Ashley wrote:Again, this is very frustrating, I still have no evidence at all of any slowdown with the Physics behavior. Mozilla have done benchmarks of the asm.js version that show it performs within 1.5x of native performance. Until I see evidence to back up claims that physics is slow, I can only assume you are either using physics so intensively that a native engine would struggle, or that really something else is the problem.

Some people blame the Platform behavior for being slow too. Likewise, I have no evidence of this.

I think there is a tendency to blame things for being slow without really understanding what is happening. If you think something is slow, use measurements to demonstrate, and share your results and the .capx you used.


I never used any physics in my game, but I've never had any problems with any of the behaviours aside from in platform behaviour I can't turn off auto climbing slopes which is super bad for falling down small gaps that are similar width to the player collision box.

Only slow down I've ever had was due to the wrappers, i.e. NW.js (btw, 0.12.1 is out.)
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Post » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:38 pm

Ashley wrote:Again, this is very frustrating, I still have no evidence at all of any slowdown with the Physics behavior. Mozilla have done benchmarks of the asm.js version that show it performs within 1.5x of native performance. Until I see evidence to back up claims that physics is slow, I can only assume you are either using physics so intensively that a native engine would struggle, or that really something else is the problem.

Some people blame the Platform behavior for being slow too. Likewise, I have no evidence of this.

I think there is a tendency to blame things for being slow without really understanding what is happening. If you think something is slow, use measurements to demonstrate, and share your results and the .capx you used.


Not using any of these behaviors and not sure if they are slow etc, but in general you're asking a bunch of beginners to figure out what is going wrong, which I think it's tough in many cases. Maybe have a process where you instruct them on using the profiler (give a case-specific example for each complaint?) to determine if a particular behavior is indeed the issue. The profiler itself may need to be more robust, e.g. to break down the top events that are using most processing time, so something liek 20 % on A, 10% on X, 5% on Y, 5% on Z, and 60% on everything else, with the ability to expand the 'everything else' category. This might make it easier for people to optimize their games and isolate true issues vs perceived ones. I'm not sure how possible this is with C2 but I know coding some intensive simulations in MATLAB the profiler that lists each operation line-by-line and % of computing time it takes to be invaluable in isolating these issues.
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Post » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:15 pm

I submitted a bug report which was dismissed because it compared results in the smoothest renderer known to current c2 users - nw 10.5. I followed up with an example of frequent frame dropping in modern browser versions but the report was already dismissed and the results ignored.

@Ashley, how do you measure high performance in physics behaviour? Being within 1.5 of native speed is useless to a game dev if every 10th frame is dropped and causes janking on non-NASA hardware. My bug report showed some quantitative evidence of what many users have been reporting here, that r196 reduced c2's game making potential (measurable dropped frames), even if the update increased the total number of objects that the engine could run at a janky 30 fps.

I just want a few objects to be rendered at a smooth 60 fps by the physics engine. I don't think the x thousand objects at a janky 30 ish fps is representative of how c2 will normally be used....
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Post » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:46 pm

@Juryiel it's not just experience. I usually don't have time to just sit down and write out all the tests involved in both comparing versions and creating a detailed bug report.

My game has been something I have been working with on the side, and this issue has only really come up in devices that are less powerful than my laptop. So of course if after 6 hours of work I export and only see ugly pauses in my game, I need to move on to homework or whathaveyou.

I will get something together as soon as I can. My plan is to simply export for web in r202, and then r195 - both the same exact project. And neither of them use anything implemented in between so I shouldn't have issues there. This should be the quickest way to get something visible available.

Edit: also, just to clarify, I keep saying this isn't a slowdown, but tiny obvious moments of lag that don't make the game unplayable, rather, frustrating.

I mean hell, otherwise physics area great!!!!! It's simply this one issue. That's it. Performance is AOK otherwise.
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Post » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:01 pm

DatapawWolf wrote:@Juryiel it's not just experience. I usually don't have time to just sit down and write out all the tests involved in both comparing versions and creating a detailed bug report.

My game has been something I have been working with on the side, and this issue has only really come up in devices that are less powerful than my laptop. So of course if after 6 hours of work I export and only see ugly pauses in my game, I need to move on to homework or whathaveyou.

I will get something together as soon as I can. My plan is to simply export for web in r202, and then r195 - both the same exact project. And neither of them use anything implemented in between so I shouldn't have issues there. This should be the quickest way to get something visible available.

Edit: also, just to clarify, I keep saying this isn't a slowdown, but tiny obvious moments of lag that don't make the game unplayable, rather, frustrating.

I mean hell, otherwise physics area great!!!!! It's simply this one issue. That's it. Performance is AOK otherwise.


I agree, I think Ashely makes it very hard to actually bug report stuff. I think as a user, I'm not going to sit and blindly try to replicate a problem in some blank capx from scratch, or generate some tech demo illustrating some problem with C2 / HTML5, especially when it could be due to things interacting, but Ashely won't look at stuff otherwise, and is generally dismissive of bug reports without an extremely large amount of work done by the user. It's actually really strange to me especially when the number of complaints about similar things is so large. I think the profiler type thing would maybe help us provide Ashely with evidence without having to rebuild various things from scratch, and may help us to better isolate the problems. With that said I have given up on submitting any bug report, I am not here to put all my effort to beta test C2 and develop tech demos to emphasize bugs, especially considering how easily and readily they are dismissed without investigating. C2 really is the worst in terms of support I have ever experienced in a paid software package. I think the team is just too small for the number of customers they have I guess.
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Post » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:01 pm

Maybe some compromise is possible here; I understand why Ashley normally has those specific standards for bug reporting, but perhaps in this case those standards could be relaxed for everyone to help each other get to the bottom of this one issue. Given that the jank/lag anomalies seem to be troubling to so many here, and doesn't seem to be going away on its own.
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Post » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:56 pm

@Collodium

when I see quotes like this:

I'm not really interested in testing old node-webkit versions, since Chrome updates usually improve performance


I have strong feeling that Ashley really lives in some alternative reality

@Juryiel

With that said I have given up on submitting any bug report, I am not here to put all my effort to beta test C2 and develop tech demos to emphasize bugs, especially considering how easily and readily they are dismissed without investigating. C2 really is the worst in terms of support I have ever experienced in a paid software package. I think the team is just too small for the number of customers they have I guess.


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Post » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:53 am

Again, I had a problem with choppiness of platform behaviour, but after switching to PlatformPlus, issue was gone. It was as simple as that.
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Post » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:16 am

So now it's turned into attacks on both personnel and product support!

#I'mashamed
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