Frankly, Whats the point of c3?

Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:56 pm

Please people, be nice to each other. Everybody has the right of their own opinions.

I am in several subscription models which is not a problem for me. I read that many people have negative feelings about the subscription model and from their point of view, they can be correct or not.

However, a subscription model can also have many positive effects :

The software company behind the subscription model gets more resources to add new features. They also have to listen more to their customer base, because when they neglect feature requests or bug fixes too often, they loose customers.

In a subscription model, companies have to deliver a quality product. Also at least one major upgrade a year is necessary for the subscription to stay succesfull.

I am using Kotobee Author (interactive ebook creation tool) in the basic subscription model (100 USD/year) which gives you 1 year free updates. Nobody there is complaining because it is a superb tool with regular updates within a year. In return for your subscription, Kotobee people are listening and specially interested in the requests and feedback from their userbase. For example, you can contact them and within hours you have your reply. We should expect the same excellent service from Scirra.

C3 working in a browser is a big plus for me, however I am using FireFox and be very reluctant for security reasons of my privacy, using Chrome.

Why not give C3 a chance? If you have a present licence, it is half price for the first year. Lets see during that first year how C3 performs and if Scirra can keep up with new features and user requests. If after one year, you are not satisfied, you can still choose another game development tool.

There is also a monthly subscription model, which fit the needs of a hobbyist with limited finances. You can let say pay for April, not using it in May (in this case no subscription is paid) and then take a new monthly subscription for June.

In my personal opinion, I find the yearly subscription model very affordable but again, I respect when you think different.

C2 despite it shortcomings, is a very good game development tool, both for beginners and experienced users. Even our daughter of 8 can enjoy it. We are creating a Mancala game which is the oldest board game in the world and coming from Africa (my home is in Gaborone Botswana Africa). I am surprised how easy she find her way in the C2 event sheets.

Regretfully for her, I am not always in Botswana because my work is in Belgium. With C3 which is browser based, she can also work with C3 when I am not there, using another licence. From an educational point of view, this will be a very interesting situation for her because now she will also learn how to work over the internet.

I am afraid positivity is somewhere getting lost in all the negativity. Many people are afraid of change, and sometimes with good reason. However, in this case I am sure we are looking into a very bright future for Construct. Scirra was groundbreaking by using HTML5 years ago, and I am sure they will be groundbreaking again.

Always keep an open mind for new developments.
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:27 pm

Cryptwalker wrote:Off and on I've been trying to get myself to "like" Unity but each time....ugh......also recenlty trying out GMS2 and that has potential. But basically, nothing beats the simplicity and ease of C2 so far. Haven't tried the Fusion stuff yet though.

Agreed, I can't believe Unity still isn't HiDPI in Windows, it looks horrendous in 1920x1080!
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:04 pm

I wouldn't say the negativity is simply based on subscription, but rather subscription for software which appears to be just C2, online.

There have been a ton of feature requests over the years, and a lot of those were responded with "that will have to wait for C3" so i think its natural that people were hoping to see feature X, and true they may now be in a better position to perhaps add feature X in the future, but i tend to pay for whats there now, rather than what might be added later.

I do agree though that under a subscription model they will be expected to offer much better support.
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:42 pm

Cryptwalker wrote:Off and on I've been trying to get myself to "like" Unity but each time....ugh......also recenlty trying out GMS2 and that has potential. But basically, nothing beats the simplicity and ease of C2 so far. Haven't tried the Fusion stuff yet though.


Simplicity and ease is not enough to make a game. Plus comparing Gamemaker/fusion/C2 to Unity is just non sense.
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:42 pm

Bad Wolf wrote:
However, a subscription model can also have many positive effects :

The software company behind the subscription model gets more resources to add new features. They also have to listen more to their customer base, because when they neglect feature requests or bug fixes too often, they loose customers.

In a subscription model, companies have to deliver a quality product. Also at least one major upgrade a year is necessary for the subscription to stay succesfull.


Unfortunately, both assertions have been proven to be untrue by Adobe's rental model: the quality of Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator and Dreamweaver has gone downhill ever since they went rental-only. Dreamweaver is a wreck - people have been leaving in droves. The quality of the updates have been lack-luster.

If anything, Adobe hasn't listened very well at all to their customer base, and the development teams seem to be more about keeping management happy.

Of course, good things have happened as well, but on a whole (based on the Adobe forums and the opinions of students in the past few years) the rental model has predominantly turned out to be a great thing for the shareholders and Adobe. Not as much for their users. My opinion - I am aware some Adobe users may disagree.

Anyway, the assertion that a rental model somehow magically forces a software company to produce quality updates and makes them listen more to their users is simply untrue. The same can be said about perpetual licenses with regular updates: if you do not keep your user base satisfied, they will leave at some point. Simple as that.

Bad Wolf wrote:Why not give C3 a chance? If you have a present licence, it is half price for the first year. Lets see during that first year how C3 performs and if Scirra can keep up with new features and user requests. If after one year, you are not satisfied, you can still choose another game development tool.

There is also a monthly subscription model, which fit the needs of a hobbyist with limited finances. You can let say pay for April, not using it in May (in this case no subscription is paid) and then take a new monthly subscription for June.

In my personal opinion, I find the yearly subscription model very affordable but again, I respect when you think different.


Well, for me a rental-only business model means I will never choose Construct 3 as part of my pipeline. Just too risky. I think anyone who develops should have full control over their development tools, and not run the risk of losing access to their work just because the rent isn't payed.

Stop paying the rent, and the Construct 3 dev cannot edit the project - basically losing access to it. A rental model keeps your files (potentially) hostage. A perpetual license allows a developer to open, edit, and build their project whenever the need arises.

That worries me, and personally I think anyone even half-heartedly semi-professionally invested in their game projects would be stark mad to rent their development tools. For larger game dev teams and companies it may be worthwhile depending on the circumstances, but those teams generally opt for more "serious" and open game engines anyway.

It is as you say: this model might work for hobbyists. But I really am strongly doubting any serious developer would ever want to lock themselves and their work in a rental model. If Construct would be the only visual programming tool in town, it might work - but that is the thing: there are other tools that are either free or provide a perpetual license that are also more powerful than Construct 3 AND provide native platform export.

So I can't see the attraction of Construct 3 at this point, even if it has nice features. Because other tools already have better and more advanced options.

Bad Wolf wrote:Always keep an open mind for new developments.


That is very much true, indeed. I quit part of my freelancing jobs last month and went "full indie" now! I have started work on my first independent game. I am still figuring out and researching the tools and pipeline, which is a lot of fun.

One thing is for certain, though: Construct 2 and 3 are not even a consideration for me anymore - the rental model approach clinched it (aside from the problems with native export and missing features). I will probably use Construct 2 for quick prototyping, though, to test ideas out quickly.
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:16 pm

Bad Wolf wrote:
Stop paying the rent, and the Construct 3 dev cannot edit the project - basically losing access to it.


I know there is a read only mode when your subscription ends.
My question is: what happens if Scirra stops support for C3 for whatever reason (for example: going out of business)?

My guess is that Scirra can create a stand alone version for C3 so that you can keep working on your projects.
But I am interested in an answer from Scirra.
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:24 pm

mumu64 wrote:
Bad Wolf wrote:
Stop paying the rent, and the Construct 3 dev cannot edit the project - basically losing access to it.


I know there is a read only mode when your subscription ends.
My question is: what happens if Scirra stops support for C3 for whatever reason (for example: going out of business)?

My guess is that Scirra can create a stand alone version for C3 so that you can keep working on your projects.
But I am interested in an answer from Scirra.


Tom mentioned in a thread that if Scirra ever is run out of business, they would consider making Construct a free download (or perhaps even open source). Of course, no promises there.

But yes, it is a viable question. Yet another uncertain factor related to rental based software. What happens when Construct 3 is no longer supported?

That is why I think it is just too risky for an indie dev. Game development is risky enough as it is - why exacerbate that by renting your main dev tools? I just don't get it.
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:30 pm

Construct Classic is open source.
Try to use a cap to make something without the editor.
Even if it wasn't proprietary, you still have issues with reusing engine specific file types.
That is the trade off for ease of use.
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:48 pm

Can I write in this topic one more concern I have?
I hope you will let me ^^

What if the price of the subscription (for hobbysts) goes up (with more than 50)?

Scirra Blog Post december 2018:
Happy new year everyone!
ps: price goes up from 100 to 250.


(I am not trying to set a negative vibe. I like C2 and Scirra^^)
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Post » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:17 pm

mumu64 wrote:Can I write in this topic one more concern I have?
I hope you will let me ^^

What if the price of the subscription (for hobbysts) goes up (with more than 50)?

Scirra Blog Post december 2018:
Happy new year everyone!
ps: price goes up from 100 to 250.


(I am not trying to set a negative vibe. I like C2 and Scirra^^)


When their deal starts sucking for you - it's very simple. Just vote with your wallet by not buying.
if the reason is the license model - not buy.
If the reason is the increased rental fee - not buy.

Simply doing that will cause the company to see the revenue going down, which will eventually force them to consider that it wasn't such a great idea to ask this from their loyal customers.
:)
Guys, in the end you have the power, the customers. If scirra broke your heart, you can break theirs too. Just spend your money and time on the competition - this will force them to compete more

I think that while they drive away alot of people, they will still make enough to keep this rental model. Thus why I will unfortunately no longer use or buy new products from scirra, but will continue to follow the forum and use construct2 once in a while for prototyping and such
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