Game Maker 3rd-party iOS compiler

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Post » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:55 pm

sad :wink:
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Post » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:12 pm

I'm afraid I also have to disagree with FredFredrickson: I think you missed the point of my original post. I basically agree with redpicman, it appears there's been no copyright infringement, the law is not on YoYo Games' side (as much as they or their fans may want it to be), and so their legal threats are empty.

However, the authors have now decided to drop the project, although they still insist it's legal:
http://gamemakerblog.com/2011/01/06/ios ... t-dropped/
which does make me wonder, couldn't they have predicted irritation from YoYo Games? It should be obvious they'd get riled up over it so I'd have expected them to have decided beforehand to continue to the end regardless else not bother at all. Maybe the legal threats would simply mean hassle that they can't be bothered with (empty legal threats succeeding in their goal again, which would be a shame).

Still, this doesn't appear to be totally resolved to me - these guys have given up but it's still wide open for another anonymous group to start developing and publishing a new one, legally. YoYo really should take steps to prevent this from their software ASAP.

Well, there's my "what everyone should do" rant :)
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Post » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:18 pm

I'm a little confused now.
Has the Apple runner been "jailbroke", or is it that you can run any converted file?
If its able to run any ios file then that's just bad design, especially when you consider all you need to hack a Game Maker save is notepad.
If you can't do that, and there isn't a hack to the runner, then I don't see what Yoyo has to complain about.
I mean you have to purchase their converter in order to submit it to their app store, correct?
Even then they wont just let anybody who isn't "up to the standards" have their game online.

Geez this is like a modern Greek tragedy.

The natives are revolting, and calling them revolting wont really help.
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Post » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:33 pm

[quote="Ashley":3rn37565]I'm afraid I also have to disagree with FredFredrickson: I think you missed the point of my original post. I basically agree with redpicman, it appears there's been no copyright infringement, the law is not on YoYo Games' side (as much as they or their fans may want it to be), and so their legal threats are empty.[/quote:3rn37565]
As far as a decompiler goes, I have to agree - there's really not much YYG could do about that alone, since there's nothing really wrong with, and no way to prove it, when someone rips apart a "compiled" game.

But as far as recompiling the game with YYG's other runners, I disagree. The very act of recompiling with a new runner might still be legal (or at least, not possible for YYG to stop), but distributing it would not be; a Game Maker user has the right to distribute games coupled with the runner they've purchased the rights to via their purchase of Game Maker (like the PC and Mac versions, for example). The iOS version remains under YYG's control, and as it is theirs to distribute; any distribution of games made with a recompiler and stolen runner, outside of YYG's control, would not be legal, and could be easily identified and removed from the App Store.

To that respect, I don't think their legal threats were empty at all. Assuming this could be their main source of income in the future, I expect they'd do as much as they could to defend it, even if it meant making an example out of some people early in the game. The people working on this project don't have the rights to distribute games compiled with YYG's iOS runner. That's really the bottom line.

I don't say this because that is the way I want it to be, and I am not the biggest fan of YYG myself, but if I put myself in their shoes, I can't see any other way to go about it. As well, how could they do anything about this situation down the road if they don't defend their position from the outset?

[quote="Ashley":3rn37565]However, the authors have now decided to drop the project, although they still insist it's legal:
http://gamemakerblog.com/2011/01/06/ios ... t-dropped/
which does make me wonder, couldn't they have predicted irritation from YoYo Games? It should be obvious they'd get riled up over it so I'd have expected them to have decided beforehand to continue to the end regardless else not bother at all. Maybe the legal threats would simply mean hassle that they can't be bothered with (empty legal threats succeeding in their goal again, which would be a shame).

Still, this doesn't appear to be totally resolved to me - these guys have given up but it's still wide open for another anonymous group to start developing and publishing a new one, legally. YoYo really should take steps to prevent this from their software ASAP.[/quote:3rn37565]
I agree - they really should take this as a warning of things to come as their software becomes even more widely used. But even if they don't, I don't think we'll be seeing any non-YYG compiled iOS games appearing in the App Store anytime soon.

[quote="newt":3rn37565]I'm a little confused now.
Has the Apple runner been "jailbroke", or is it that you can run any converted file?
If its able to run any ios file then that's just bad design, especially when you consider all you need to hack a Game Maker save is notepad.
If you can't do that, and there isn't a hack to the runner, then I don't see what Yoyo has to complain about.
I mean you have to purchase their converter in order to submit it to their app store, correct?
Even then they wont just let anybody who isn't "up to the standards" have their game online.

Geez this is like a modern Greek tragedy.

The natives are revolting, and calling them revolting wont really help.[/quote:3rn37565]
It's not quite like that. They've developed a runner for iOS that they are retaining control of. You submit your game to them, they decide if it's good enough, tweak it if necessary, and then they compile the game on their end with the iOS runner attached. This is then submitted to the App Store, and you split the profits with them.

The reason why this is a big deal is that, through the process of decompiling the iOS apps, users outside of YYG have obtained access to the iOS runner, and can now recompile any game they want to run on iOS by swapping out the default runner with the iOS version.

YYG, as far as I can guess, is concerned for two reasons: First, they have not granted anyone outside of YYG access or distribution rights to the iOS runner, and second, this is a prime source of income for their company for the foreseeable future.

It's more of a modern geek tragedy, hehe.
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Post » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:12 pm

instead of derailing threads, i should post something constructive here-

People are talking about YYG losing money because of the free iOS runner, but it may actually not happen. The free ruuner will actually be used for homebrew free games that people would develop just for fun. Those who'll be having plans of making money will probably use the "legal" way and do as YYG said because they don't want their game on which they have worked hard, to be removed from the app store the first day of release. Well, actually YYG may lose money but that would be small fraction from the free game devs. But still the problem of decompilation persists.

And yes, YYG should work harder on increasing the security in their software.


PS Also Ashley, this may sound a little selfish but why don't you try contacting the two programmers and inviting them to help in development to Construct/Construct 2, because here they can atleast help people without someone pointing a gun at them.
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Post » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:22 pm

I was under the impression their tool translated a .gmk file in to a .ios file which a freely available iOS runner could then consume. I thought that meant essentially translating a document in to a new format, which an iOS runner can then execute.

I guess I'm not clear on the process, though. Is it up to the end user to get the iOS runner? Where does it come from? The decompiler guys said they didn't redistribute it. Is it the end user who downloads some other iOS game then swaps the .ios game data for another? Or is there just a raw iOS runner freely available?

Whether or not you're allowed to publish the resulting game is beside the point. You're allowed to download uTorrent, but you're not allowed to use it to download copyrighted movies. So I suppose you could translate your game in to Apple-format, but not be allowed to publish it - that does not imply the translator is illegal, because the disallowed action is the publishing step, not the translation step.

Further, if it's the end-user of the translator who downloads the iOS runtime and swaps out the game, that's the responsibility of the end-user. It's just like uTorrent - providing a tool that can be used for illegal purposes does not make the tool itself illegal, only that particular way of using it.

I guess there's also a very big grey area around whether the idea of exchanging a data segment in an executable file counts as decompiling, but again, the translator tool does not have to be the thing that does that.

Maybe I spoke too soon and should have learnt more about it before posting my thoughts, but given there's been a decompiler for the ordinary Game Maker for years, it does seem YoYo could have done something long ago to mitigate this, and they seem to have turned to legal threats rather quickly.
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Post » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:24 pm

[quote="Ashley":1282ekkn]I guess I'm not clear on the process, though... Maybe I spoke too soon and should have learnt more about it before posting my thoughts...[/quote:1282ekkn]

Ah, who cares about such trivial things as "facts" anyway? I learned all I needed about this by briefly skimming through two whole blog comments and filtering it through my residual prejudice of GameMaker. It's more fun that way :P
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Post » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:45 am

It could very well be myself who is not clear on the facts - I just presented them as I understand them myself, as I see it. :wink:
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Post » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:03 am

YYG has chosen the wrong approach here. Keeping in mind that it's a product for indie gamers, the last thing you want to do is appear to be anti-indie success, regardless of the circumstances. It's bad for your image.

The other problem is, at least I would think, is that if this was made with a YYG product, is their attack on it basically telling end users that they can't make their own creations do whatever they want them to do? If so, how can that stand up in court if the original granted license never prohibited it? The answer is, it can't. You can't retroactively attach new agreement guidelines that way just because you don't like what the agreeing party is doing. If you didn't put it in the agreement, you have no recourse other than kicking and screaming like a baby that wet its diaper.

So they've basically allowed for it to happen by not preventing it in their own development, and now they think legal threats will stop it. They haven't thought this through. All this will do is make people go after it more. They don't know what they're getting themselves into, smh.
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Post » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 am

Yeah, it seems to me that if you make a game with GM, then you own it. If you own it you should be able to do what you want with it. That includes selling it where and how you want. If that means buying YYG's official iOS exporter to get it onto iPhone, fine. If that means using a free program that does the same thing, that's fine too.

As long as that free program doesn't contain or rely upon any code stolen from YYG then there shouldn't be any problem at all.

And since I'm too lazy to check for myself, and since there seems to be some confusion over the matter, can anyone confirm if this 3rd party program does or does not contain or rely upon code stolen from YYG? TIA. TTFN.


(I guess it's kind of a moot point if the team has stopped working on it but whatever.)
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