gles.js - a lightweight WebGL renderer for Android

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:03 am

Egyptoon wrote:
Ashley wrote:Most criticisms people raise of platforms like Crosswalk are simply temporary bugs. They'll get fixed. Native platforms have bugs too, and they usually end up fixed as well. Everyone was crying for us to develop a new desktop exporter when NW.js had a v-sync bug. As far as I can tell, it's now fixed, and I haven't seen any other demands for a native desktop exporter since. I knew it would be fixed and I tried to explain this, but people demanded native exporters anyway. It would be crazy if we started this massive engineering project just because of a temporary bug. In the space of a year or however long it would take, any temporary issues would almost certainly be fixed. And given how fast HTML5 has developed - from no mobile support at all just a few years ago - it seems unwise to bet against this.


No, this is completely wrong.
Not just temporary bugs, starting this "massive engineering project" is a must if you want C2 to stand for the next year.
The problem is not related to bugs, playing HTML game inside a web browser on android system is a very big waste of CPU power and battery life, at the end the games performance is horrible.
Flappy bird clone game consumes about 70% of CPU power and makes the mobile device suffers a lot, APK size about 23 mb just for a very simple game! and runs at 35 fps ! WHY ?!!
such a game must be 2 or 3 mb maximum, consumes about 10% of CPU power and runs at 60 fps on most mobile devices.
Scirra must work on a native exporter, C2 must allow us to create more advanced games on mobile devices, i can't make 2 sprites to move smoothly on mobile device with C2 regards any optimizations to both code and images.

I'm not saying that to open fire on C2, i LOVE C2, and i LOVE making games using C2, and i tried every single program avaliable and i didn't find a single one can replace C2 even Fusion 2.5
I appreciate all your efforts making C2 an AWESOME software and it is really awesome. except for the mobile export options.
in my country we have a Proverb says: "He ruined the whole dish by 1 penny salt!"
explanation: when someone makes a perfect thing and ruined it completely by a very tiny mistake at the end. the cook is ruined because of some little salt that makes it uneatable!

Thanks


Pardon my directness, but if you've got issues with bugs caused by third parties who control the end technology to deliver your game, take it up with them. Or fix it yourself. Or code your own game engine, since apparently it'd be super-easy for you to do so based on your in-depth understanding of how cross-platform game engines based on bleeding-edge web technology are developed over time.
B
71
S
41
G
24
Posts: 518
Reputation: 20,195

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:40 am

@digitalsoapbox
Thanks for your great advice, i already switched to Unity and I'm learning it now, in case you don't know it is a cross-platform game engine. YEAH :)
I've no time to develop my own game engine right now, but I'll do soon, and I'll let you know when it's ready.
Thanks and have a nice time with 3rd party issues.
B
15
S
5
Posts: 192
Reputation: 1,514

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:01 am

Egyptoon wrote:@digitalsoapbox
Thanks for your great advice, i already switched to Unity and I'm learning it now, in case you don't know it is a cross-platform game engine. YEAH :)
I've no time to develop my own game engine right now, but I'll do soon, and I'll let you know when it's ready.
Thanks and have a nice time with 3rd party issues.


Cool. Glad you're having fun with Unity. I'm sure you'll never ever run into a platform or technology-specific issue with that engine.
B
71
S
41
G
24
Posts: 518
Reputation: 20,195

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:16 am

@digitalsoapbox as someone who has made both 2D and 3D games from scratch I can confirm that it actually is better in some cases than being completely held hostage by a third-third party (as it's not just Construct 2 and driver vendors we are waiting on, it's also Chrome, Node-Webkit, and the HTML5 standard in general).

The main reason we don't re-invent the wheel is because we want to actually finish the games we make instead of producing tonnes of unfinished abandonware before we finally settle on choice of programming language, memory usage/allocation, design pattern(s), and other low-level things. Prototyping is a great time to switch engines around, and being half-way finished or further is not.

Middleware that works roughly the same way every time can be accounted for with work-arounds, while random engine-breaking updates can stall or kill a project entirely.

The reason why I personally want native desktop is because I know that Scirra can and has done an AMAZING native DirectX 9 runtime before with Construct Classic: http://www.scirra.com/construct-classic

Literally the C2 editor exporting to CC would be all I'd ever need ( as CC had a buggy editor but pretty solid runtime...except on Vista :P ).

Point is though, we want to use Construct 2, as a game dev tool it is literally the best we've ever seen, especially for 2D games. However, when you want to release commercial titles and pay say $500 for a copy of a "professional business edition of a game development tool" for each member of your indie studio to do so, you really want said game engine to actually perform the tasks it promises, especially after you've just raised all your funds in a Kickstarter and now have to release a product on the budget you initially planned (and other, less specific, cases).

Unity is where a lot of serious C2 developers seem to be going, and each one I've seen hasn't blamed the editor in Construct 2, just the lack of control that Scirra has over runtime/export.

Also as a side note I've been following Sombrero for some time and it's looking really good, reminds me of the Friendly Strike series I played in my Clickteam TGF/MMF days :)
Last edited by Jayjay on Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:06 am, edited 8 times in total.
"Construct 4 lets YOU make advanced games! (but not play them)" Construct Classic - Examples Kit
B
113
S
39
G
17
Posts: 2,184
Reputation: 19,217

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:21 am

@digitalsoapbox
Can you please mention 1 single professional game made in C2? just one :)
do you know why ? Because of what i already said in my reply.
Check games made in Unity and compare :) it'll be fun to do.
and I'm still saying C2 is Awesome (to play with) in your spare time and have fun with it, not for real serious game production.
C2 is just about 1 step close to be perfect, and this step requires REBUILDING it from scratch and include its OWN native exporter, without this it'll stay USELESS.
B
15
S
5
Posts: 192
Reputation: 1,514

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:24 am

I'm switching to Unity, too. I've been using C2 for about 2 years, and it still cannot support full features for mobile. There is no reason I have to wait. Now Unity is almost free, and also Unreal Engine. 2 years of studying coding would make a lot of difference than waiting third parties.
B
23
S
8
G
1
Posts: 172
Reputation: 2,780

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:25 am

@Jayjay
EXACTLY.
and C2 will stay Awesome for its amazing editor, the best editor I've worked on ever.
B
15
S
5
Posts: 192
Reputation: 1,514

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:45 am

@Egyptoon

Yeah I agree :)

but also I would acknowledge that there have been quite a few professional games made in C2 of varying genre and size, here's a list of Construct 2 (and some Construct Classic from the looks of it) games on Steam Greenlight (some of which have been Greenlit/are already on Steam): http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =103535227
"Construct 4 lets YOU make advanced games! (but not play them)" Construct Classic - Examples Kit
B
113
S
39
G
17
Posts: 2,184
Reputation: 19,217

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:56 am

@Jayjay
@Egyptoon
@shaircast

uhm. At least now no more serious devs will treat C2 serious. Especially when nothing really changed: 1-2 years ago we have heard exactly the same excuses like we are hearing now.

We have to accept reality where Ashley do only what is comfortable for him. And we have to accept Scirra's business model: 2-3 person company and money from kids and education + ignore serious devs and taking responsability.

And yes - someday HTML5 situation might be perfect. But now is now. Some people have to pay bills now, not in 2016, 2017 or 2018.

2 years of studying coding would make a lot of difference than waiting third parties.


+1
B
18
S
6
G
1
Posts: 783
Reputation: 4,187

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:25 am

Jayjay wrote:The reason why I personally want native desktop is because I know that Scirra can and has done an AMAZING native DirectX 9 runtime before with Construct Classic: http://www.scirra.com/construct-classic

Literally the C2 editor exporting to CC would be all I'd ever need

The CC runtime had annoying third-party-inherited issues too, just different problems. The "optional DirectX components" (D3DX) installer was a pain. We had to use it since there didn't seem to be any other way to render text in DirectX, and it provided a bunch of other must-have utility functions. However end users didn't really seem to understand it even though we tried to make the error message clear. If an ordinary user sees a "sorry, you need a DirectX update, go here..." type error message before running the game, I think a lot of users just gave up at that point, or came to our forum asking what to do (which kind of mystified me, it had instructions in the error message - I think people just freak out when they see a message box with anything technical in it). We recommended making an installer for games, but loads of people wanted their games to run without an installer for easier distribution (an under-appreciated feature of browser games IMO). D3DX had some weird bugs as well that were difficult enough to work around that CC had some unsolved bugs. So it was always a thorn in our side, and we're talking about an official Microsoft DirectX component here. Then there were driver bugs, making the game look totally glitched up unless you updated your graphics drivers direct from the video card manufacturer (try getting a non-technical user to figure that out).

After all that trouble with DirectX, we decided to switch to OpenGL for the C2 editor itself, and especially in the early days driver bugs were horribly frustrating. We had a bug like "the editor crashes on startup on any AMD Radeon graphics card in this range of models". It was fixed after about 9 months, because I got a random drive-by reply on a StackOverflow question that gave the (obscure) answer. Luck fixed that one, we had no chance of fixing it ourselves. While dealing with that kind of problem I was thinking "phew, I'm glad the runtime doesn't get screwed by issues like this".

So with CC - and the native C2 editor - we just depended on different third parties, and we had a different bunch of problems. I don't see changing technology or writing a new native exporter changing that. Even if we did the whole native tech stuff, I just imagine threads like this one, but complaining about why we rely on some different set of technologies and have to deal with inheriting their problems. Also I know "bug 422000" is now infamous, but the fact there's a long comment thread there with Google engineers commenting on it is pretty outstanding - on that previous AMD driver bug, I failed to even find any reasonable way to report a bug at all - I was sent in circles by the standard customer support staff and certainly never got as far as an engineer.

I do sympathise with the complaints in this thread; I'm frustrated too, and I can see this comes at a bad time after all the nonsense with CocoonJS and the other non-browser engines, and the OpenSSL vulnerability ruling out CW7 makes it a perfect storm with not many other options right now. This sucks. But lots of people are working on this, and all platforms have their issues. For those of you talking about native exporters, our difficulties with native tech was one of the factors in pushing us towards HTML5. Don't imagine native being perfect - from my own experience it can definitely have problems of a similar level too. And I know I always say this, but it will be worked out. Crosswalk was working smoothly as of pretty recently and I don't think there's any reason to believe it will stay this way forever.
Scirra Founder
B
387
S
230
G
88
Posts: 24,254
Reputation: 192,470

PreviousNext

Return to Construct 2 General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest