gles.js - a lightweight WebGL renderer for Android

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:04 pm

@Schoening: +1

@Gianmichele: Haxe is a nice language and i think it has potential, but even it is said to be crossplatform because you can compile in many different languages (like CPP/C#/JS...), it doesn't support the same features on every platform or with every language. So while in theory you can compile to every platform, it doesn't mean your game will run equal or with the same features on every platform.
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Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:28 pm

@digitalsoapbox Awesome, can't wait to hear how Xbox One is looking! :) I agree that Unity has its flaws and that's actually why I really want for C2 export formats to be able to get into a position of having more stability and performance, I just feel that it's not yet the time for the website to say "We're stable and you can make whatever 2D game you want and it'll run amazing!" all over its product pages and then turn around and say "Well, it's kinda early access so just wait for the next update/technology" when people are having issues.

@TiAm definitely agree it'd be nice to have either more forces working together on node-webkit or competition to let the best ones survive/rise to the top.

@Schoening again attacking people who are having legitimate issues that are within the bounds of what they were promised the engine would do is not fair. I agree with you that full re-write is insane for just one programmer, but now with C3 in development it's worthwhile to have people voicing their concerns of what they want in the future (and doesn't that mean that C2 is going to someday too be retired like CC?)

I don't get extra slack from any customers or reviewers when my 2D 80's inspired arcade game doesn't run properly on decent machines just because we are a "2 man team building an HTML5 game". It's great to be a fan of Construct, I have been since almost the earliest betas of Construct Classic :)

It really sucks that people would ever need to "f*** off", and it doesn't look good on the community or development tool as a whole if they do. It's not the people trying to make a 3D MMORPG leaving, it's people making simple arcade platformers and top-down racing games who just can't get their professional games working the way they need them to. I think I'm just saying that it isn't "you're with us or you're against us", it's a community of people who all have very different goals and aspirations under the same promise, the same things we see in the advertising material and feature lists of Construct 2.

@volkiller730 Very true too!
Last edited by Jayjay on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Construct 4 lets YOU make advanced games! (but not play them)" Construct Classic - Examples Kit
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Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:31 pm

Shirogames (who are making Haxe and very successful games) already released Evoland ( 2D / 3D trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxBjDGc4YCg ) on Pc+ Mac + Linux + Mobile + Consoles.
Bonus: they stick with it for their next games, which is a very good sign to me considering they're not trying to make money with their engine or language.

Even if I still stand on the "C2 shouldn't get a native exporter, it would just kill the small company behind it" side, that's more than a good proof to consider Haxe as a reliable and true multiplatforms language : )

EDIT: @digitalsoapbox , your game looks very good! Congrats!
Last edited by Aurel on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image | @AurelRegard on twitter
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Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:36 pm

TiAm wrote:What would really make C2 exporting better would be some competition for desktop (and potentially, console) distribution. Right now it boils down to: NW.JS. And that's it.

Firefox may be terrible now, but project silk looks to be a dramatic improvement that should bring the fox on par with chromium (when chromium is behaving that is). What about Mozilla making their own version of NW.JS?


Because fragmentation is bad, as you mention below.

TiAm wrote:Ditto for Microsoft: what about a 'redist runtime' version of Spartan that offers support across Windows Desktop, Mobile, and XB One?


What's the benefit of this over their cross-platform universal app support with HTML5/JS/WebGL?

TiAm wrote:As for mobile, it would be great to hear from more people using CJS Webview+ to distribute on iOS8, because so far all I've heard is that it is phenomenal performance-wise, but the only person I know of who is using it for sure is silverforce.


If it's not cross-platform, what would the benefit be to cross-platform developers? What happens when CJS goes the way of the dodo in lieu of other options with more features and better support? CJS support is terrible, period.

TiAm wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that Android is a poor platform to begin with, given it's poor commercial potential, poor performance relative to the raw system perf (even for native apps), high input latency, massively fractured OS/Hardware, dismal state of chromium/crosswalk for android, etc...


Fragmentation on Android is dropping and is the most popular mobile platform worldwide based on sales figures and install base alone. That's an odd thing to describe as a commercial failure. Every Android device I've tested on - and I test from 2.3 up to 5, across about a dozen different devices from a list of different manufacturers - has no trouble handling anything designed for their specifications. It's no different than developing for a desktop computer in terms of the different hardware configurations that need to be supported. As for Chromium/Crosswalk, I'm quite happy with 60fps 1080p performance with thousands of sprites on mid-range Android hardware, so I've no idea what you're talking about here either. I think your information may just be out of date, and I believe @Ashley has already written a blog post on this very site about Android performance and support.
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Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:44 pm

Jayjay wrote:@digitalsoapbox Awesome, can't wait to hear how Xbox One is looking! :) I agree that Unity has its flaws and that's actually why I really want for C2 export formats to be able to get into a position of having more stability and performance, I just feel that it's not yet the time for the website to say "We're stable and you can make whatever 2D game you want and it'll run amazing!" all over its product pages and then turn around and say "Well, it's kinda early access so just wait for the next update/technology" when people are having issues.


Yeah, I was happy to finally, after months, get a reply from MS to discuss uapp stuff on XB1.

Unfortunately, there's no reason to expect that native exporters would decrease the issues anyone is having with performance. It would, however, almost certainly overburden the small development team behind Construct, or they'd have to hire more developers to help, thus raising the price of the software.

As for C2's claims: yes, it's stable. Yes, so far as I can tell I can use it to make any kind of 2D game I'd ever want to make. Yes, parts of it when I first purchased it felt a little early access, but I don't know how anyone could make that claim with a straight face. What I know is that even with receiving over a year of updates that have made the tools exponentially more varied and powerful, I haven't been asked for any more money and I think that's pretty awesome.
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Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

@digitalsoapbox

Agreed, based on the way Scirra operates full native doesn't work for their timeframe.

For our game we ended up with a 500mb project at export (lots of graphics and music and sound, lots of levels, lots of other layouts, and lots of things going on in-game, and about 3 to 4 hours of gameplay), and after finally releasing the game we found that the performance was very hit-and-miss across machines with almost the exact same (great) specs and that screen-recording software like FRAPS or even a Skype window share would cause glitches like characters jumping higher than they should ever be able to. For some customers even having Chrome open at the same time caused noticeable issues.

Right now we are only able to use Node Webkit 10.5. We figured updating to NW.js 12.0 would be better, but performance has not been near what we get in 10.5 (and upgrading C2 also drops performance for some reason, we've tried each new release since r196 with no luck).

This isn't a small game admittedly, but it's also not the largest I've seen for 2D games made in middleware like Construct 2. We invested a large amount of time into optimizing performance and still see things happening from customers that have never happened in our testing. Things like this are almost impossible to "produce a blank cap demonstrating the bug" for and are also why we had to make some tough decisions on which platforms to release on based on how many people will likely be unable to run the game at all (not an unnoticeable amount based on Steam's hardware surveys).

So yes, it's partially humour to say C2 is still early access, but when it comes to stability in larger games and selling to a fairly large customer base, it's definitely the rough and early stages for us, bugs that would be tolerable in freeware or unnoticeable in smaller games matter and the ones we don't have control over are what hurt the most.
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Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:59 pm

@Jayjay I don't want to play too much devils advocate here. But what were people promised besides the option to export games to mobile aswell.
I would like to see some more warnings about mobile performance tho, since a lot of people comming to scirra probably don't realize or think about performance differences between devices.
I don't mind that people voice their opinions. My message is to those agressive, borderline trollish, remarks about the engine with no basis in reality anyways.

But I actually do have a suggestion for @ashley that might be somewhat reasonable altho probably still way to much work: slowly replacing parts of the engine with asm.js code? I know the physics plugin is using it. But rewriting performance critical parts of the engine in a language like C, C++ or C# and compiling it to asm.js may boost mobile performance "enough" while still avoiding the headache of exports to native platforms.
That code would still need to be re-written and then need a gazillion tests and bug fixes tho :|
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Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:20 pm

@Gianmichele Haxe looks awesome! I have been thinking about it for a while.. I'm gonna try out the Three.js Haxe port and if that can compile that to more than JS I am totally sold on Haxe myself :D
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Post » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:22 pm

@Schoening Well right on the homepage it says "Build Once. Publish Everywhere." with "True multiplatform support" and yet my game does not run properly on almost every Linux or Mac computer I've tried, or WiiU at all (due to WebGL but also performance). Mobile was never my own goal so I won't mention more than that I've read many difficulties people face there.

Ashley's blog post is also often used to show how "HTML5 [is] faster than native [games in Construct Classic]" ( https://www.scirra.com/blog/102/html5-g ... han-native ), while there have been a few times where this is simply not true such as the performance tests in this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=146&t=123580&p=879768#p879768

That example was used to improve C2 though, so it would probably be really beneficial for more comparison files like it to be made/to have more facts behind the arguments on both sides.

Ashley also said that C2 should scale to handle "large projects" in their Reddit AMA ( https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/commen ... us/clmarke ), while now many well known large projects are moving onto other tools in future. By the time your game gets large enough the editor slows down and can crash while adding objects or events, I had to hack my windows registry just to be able to edit events but still have to wait about 5 to 10 seconds each time I try editing or adding an event that opens the object list (and yes, icon cache was off too).

Definitely agree, trolls don't help.

I also think that'd be a great suggestion :)
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Post » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:24 am

@digitalsoapbox

...fragmentation is bad, as you mention below...


No, (some) competition is good. Competition between FF/IE, and subsequently FF/Chrome, is what has built HTML/JS into the powerhouse it is today. Right now our export options are largely a chromium-based monoculture, with the exception of iOS8 Webview export. I'd love to see Mozilla/Microsoft alter that landscape; in the case of Microsoft, it seems they may be planning to do just that.

What's the benefit of this [redist runtime] over their cross-platform universal app support with HTML5/JS/WebGL?


I think we ought to have both options. Relying on a built in engine, like with Webview on iOS8/Android L, is a great solution in many ways, especially for keeping the app size down, but that layer can (and will) be updated and can (and will) break. When it does, I want to be able to package my app with a specific version of that runtime that I know will work, bloat be damned.

(Re CJS Webview+ export)If it's not cross-platform, what would the benefit be to cross-platform developers? What happens when CJS goes the way of the dodo in lieu of other options with more features and better support? CJS support is terrible, period.


I think you are confusing Canvas+ (a proprietary creation of CJS) with Webview+. See:

https://www.scirra.com/blog/154/evolvin ... rt-options

Fragmentation on Android is dropping and is the most popular mobile platform worldwide based on sales figures and install base alone. That's an odd thing to describe as a commercial failure. Every Android device I've tested on - and I test from 2.3 up to 5, across about a dozen different devices from a list of different manufacturers - has no trouble handling anything designed for their specifications...


Fragmentation is still bad. Android L is a significant step forward, but it looks like it's going to be years until it achieves a majority market share.

Most popular platform? Sure, can't argue that. But as for monetization, I'll let the data speak for itself:

http://blog.monumentvalleygame.com/blog ... in-numbers

http://bgr.com/2014/06/26/ios-vs-androi ... r-revenue/

http://www.businessinsider.com/android- ... lem-2015-1

...As for Chromium/Crosswalk, I'm quite happy with 60fps 1080p performance with thousands of sprites on mid-range Android hardware, so I've no idea what you're talking about here either...


...and with this, we've just crossed over into the twilight zone. :geek:

Anywhere I can find a video of a mid-range (under $250 unlocked) android device spitting out 60fps/1080p/1,000s of sprites in the context of an actual C2 game exported with the current crosswalk stable(CW10)? Because really, I would love to believe this is possible, but I just don't. Then again, I've been wrong before... :mrgreen:
Don't lose your work. Backup your game with Dropbox.
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