High Definition Retro gaming Art

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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 2:42 pm

[quote="thomasmahler":34sxv7vh]Try to find artists now that are really good 2d artists that can design, paint and are good animators - good luck with that. The industry is always adapting to what's cool right now, to what's making money and 2d hasn't been hot for a long time now.[/quote:34sxv7vh]

That's... pretty much what I was getting at.

The guy's art we are talking about was not made in 3D... I, for some weird reason, thought we were talking about painting 2D art, and making games that looked like said 2D art.

Of course 3D is far more common.... like I said, it is easier to animate and render images a 3D object, than to draw a 2D object from scratch for every single frame. And yes, if you did make a game that looked as good as those art-works, in 2D, painting them by hand... you WOULD need 200 people (perhaps an exaggeration, but you see the point I am trying to make?) to complete a large project.

Those 200 people could easily be reduced to 10 if using 3D... because after the model is made, boned, and weighted, you can pose it however you want, on any angle you like.... tween the movements, or whatever you wanna do... and BAM you have a fully animated mobile character that you have to do very minimal work to in order to make "the next animation frame" should you choose to render it to a raster image (IE Diablo 2).

Sorry, but I got a little confused when I presumed we were talking about the thread topic and it turns out we were talking about making the same thing in 3D?

~Sol
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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 2:55 pm

[quote="SoldjahBoy":1udfhbjj]That's... pretty much what I was getting at.

The guy's art we are talking about was not made in 3D... I, for some weird reason, thought we were talking about painting 2D art, and making games that looked like said 2D art.[/quote:1udfhbjj]

Have you read my post before that? I was just thinking about how you could streamline a production in order to work out a project like that and I think it's very possible since todays next-gen projects are far, far more complex in terms of asset creation than anything he does anyway. Creating the character art in 3d would make a lot of sense in order to streamline character animation, but even if you'd decide otherwise...

[quote:1udfhbjj]Of course 3D is far more common.... like I said, it is easier to animate and render images a 3D object, than to draw a 2D object from scratch for every single frame. And yes, if you did make a game that looked as good as those art-works, in 2D, painting them by hand... you WOULD need 200 people (perhaps an exaggeration, but you see the point I am trying to make?) to complete a large project.[/quote:1udfhbjj]

What the hey? We're still talking about making a game that looks like the screenshots that guy posted, right? So even if you'd do everything in 2d, even the character animation - for say, that Mario game he re-created, you'd _never_ need 200 people. I don't even know how you're calculating this. 200 people, dude? I think you're highly overestimating that artwork.

Look at this:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/48398.html

Here we go. I'd be surprised if their team is larger than 30 people at best.
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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 3:03 pm

wow. that is the coolest thing i've seen in a while! i love vanillaware's stuff ... :)
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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 5:14 pm

[quote="thomasmahler":rsh7yiay]
What the hey? We're still talking about making a game that looks like the screenshots that guy posted, right? So even if you'd do everything in 2d, even the character animation - for say, that Mario game he re-created, you'd _never_ need 200 people. I don't even know how you're calculating this. 200 people, dude? I think you're highly overestimating that artwork.

Look at this:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/48398.html

Here we go. I'd be surprised if their team is larger than 30 people at best.[/quote:rsh7yiay]

Like I said, it was probably an exaggeration... how many people it would take isn't really the point. I was just trying to say, that the man-power-hours for something like that, made in 2d, would be phenomenal compared to the same thing made in 3d. Regardless of whether it was 1 person or 1000 people.

I don't want to argue semantics, I was just trying to make a generalised point about an observation. There aren't really any games that look like that dudes drawings (style aside)... and even though that trailer you linked looks damn fine, it's sort of "cheating" in the fact they are using a bones system, which again drastically cuts down on production time since you don't have to draw every single frame. Bones in a way, are a lot like 3d... you draw the thing once, twice, maybe a third time if you are unlucky, and use the bones to effectively animate the character.

If you say 200 people is unrealistic, then fine I believe you... but why does it take feature length animations made "the old way" hundreds upon hundreds of people to make over a course of 5+ years? Because they didn't have 3d, and they didn't have "bones"... everything was hand painted... frame by frame... from scratch.

~Sol
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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 5:35 pm

[quote="thomasmahler":1khgts9x]What the hey? We're still talking about making a game that looks like the screenshots that guy posted, right? So even if you'd do everything in 2d, even the character animation - for say, that Mario game he re-created, you'd _never_ need 200 people. I don't even know how you're calculating this. 200 people, dude? I think you're highly overestimating that artwork.

Look at this:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/48398.html

Here we go. I'd be surprised if their team is larger than 30 people at best.[/quote:1khgts9x]

Still those are not animated Frame by frame those use bones, making it much easier to animate.

It doesent matter how many people you have working on a project you can have 30 people working on a project and it will take longer than having 60 people on a project. The real risk comes when you have a huge group of people with no consistency.
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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 6:26 pm

[quote:35bboa5h]If you say 200 people is unrealistic, then fine I believe you... but why does it take feature length animations made "the old way" hundreds upon hundreds of people to make over a course of 5+ years? Because they didn't have 3d, and they didn't have "bones"... everything was hand painted... frame by frame... from scratch.[/quote:35bboa5h]

3D animated movies take about that long to make too. :)
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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 6:36 pm

[quote="Arima":1zaebhkr][quote:1zaebhkr]If you say 200 people is unrealistic, then fine I believe you... but why does it take feature length animations made "the old way" hundreds upon hundreds of people to make over a course of 5+ years? Because they didn't have 3d, and they didn't have "bones"... everything was hand painted... frame by frame... from scratch.[/quote:1zaebhkr]

3D animated movies take about that long to make too. :)[/quote:1zaebhkr]

They don't have hundreds of people working for them these days though... not animators anyway... plus, a lot of that time is rendering footage :/

~Sol
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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 6:48 pm

Go Render Farm........ Away!

Ahh render farms are awesome. I set one up with 30 computers at my college for a final project I got an A for Awesome.
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Post » Tue May 12, 2009 7:29 pm

[quote:2iatr35r]They don't have hundreds of people working for them these days though... not animators anyway... plus, a lot of that time is rendering footage :/[/quote:2iatr35r]

Since this discussion is about the art and what shows up on screen, I understand why you wouldn't count the people in finance or such, but a lot of the people are engineers and concept artists, rigging and texture artists, etc. If they're contributing to what eventually happens on screen - like writing the software to make the stuff that happens on screen possible, like fur, hair and cloth - then I really don't think they shouldn't be counted. Animators are one piece of a film. Even in 2d movies there's the animators, inbetweeners, ink & paint, background artists... Watching the credits of any 3D animated movie shows hundreds of people who're involved.

Also, the rendering happens concurrently and overnight. The film isn't finished then everyone waits to render, because not only do the movies take too long to render to do that, but then there's editing/compositing to do after the rendering's complete as well. I maintain my stance that 3D movies take as long to make. Well, good ones, anyway. :)
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Post » Wed May 13, 2009 12:07 am

[quote="Arima":fw5m2tpt][quote:fw5m2tpt]They don't have hundreds of people working for them these days though... not animators anyway... plus, a lot of that time is rendering footage :/[/quote:fw5m2tpt]

Since this discussion is about the art and what shows up on screen, I understand why you wouldn't count the people in finance or such, but a lot of the people are engineers and concept artists, rigging and texture artists, etc. If they're contributing to what eventually happens on screen - like writing the software to make the stuff that happens on screen possible, like fur, hair and cloth - then I really don't think they shouldn't be counted. Animators are one piece of a film. Even in 2d movies there's the animators, inbetweeners, ink & paint, background artists... Watching the credits of any 3D animated movie shows hundreds of people who're involved.

Also, the rendering happens concurrently and overnight. The film isn't finished then everyone waits to render, because not only do the movies take too long to render to do that, but then there's editing/compositing to do after the rendering's complete as well. I maintain my stance that 3D movies take as long to make. Well, good ones, anyway. :)[/quote:fw5m2tpt]

Yeah I totally get that... I agree in fact since the level of detail that goes into some of the models is mind blowing... like Aki from Final Fantasy... what was it again? over 2 million hair strands or something insane like that? Still... rendering does consume thousands upon thousands of hours in the process, even if it is done concurrently with the progress of the project.

And yes, I realise there are more than just animators there... without everyone else the animators would just sit there with their thumbs up their asses. I guess this, if anything, reinforces my original point of my (exaggerated) 200 person team... but I was referring in context mainly to the artists and animators and not everyone else. But yes, you are right... there are certainly a large amount of people involved, behind the scenes as well, that make things like this happen.

Hell, Blizzard employ 2,700 people... so much for "never needing 200 people on a team" or whatever.

~Sol
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