Mac nodewebkit broken due to massive input delay

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:42 pm

Unfortunately the true answer is Scirra developed export options (I know this has been discussed in other topics)

    It is bad enough having to rely on browsers, with their never ending inconsistencies and app breaking bugs, which is of course something we can't avoid in a product that is well HTML 5, and therefore browser reliant.

    But exporting to anything that is not going to run in a browser should be just as reliable as the product that we use to make the app in the first place.
Construct2 is a very, very cool product - hands down!
    But all the export options are prone to bugs and\or never-fixed nuances - and this has the often reported problem of breaking C2 apps.

    In this post the problem is NW.
    In another post (sticky) the problem is chrome - resulting in a need to re-publish older games. Well I might be alone here but if a game runs fine at the time of release, you should only have to re-publish it to remove bugs in the game itself or because you added new features - not because a third party dependency breaks it!

Time for Scirra to write their own export wrappers, be it for desktop or mobile devices.
    Yes it means inventing the wheel again to some degree.
    Yes it means taking time from adding more features to C2.
    Yes it won't be a small task.

    BUT it will definitely mean well written and robust export options that work best for Construct2.

    That is the confidence I believe we all have in Scirra.
Whenever you are in a chain, you're only as good as the weakest link.
    C2's weakest link has always been and still is the export options. Relying on third party developers to deliver the most important part of your game-development cycle.

    Lets face it Construct2 is a fantastic tool to use for development. Well that is great for the developer, but if you want all that development to be enjoyed by others - then they have to be able to play it.

    Now if those third parties are breaking your very cool product - then surely it is better not to have to rely on them at all.

At the moment history could well be written something like:
    Construct2 was a brilliant product that became nothing more than a prototype tool for developers, due to its reliance on third party tools that never produced reliable export options. After many years of waiting/hoping for real solutions, even C2's most dedicated adherents finally had to jump ship. Que sera sera....

We would like history to be written something like this:
    After many years of dissapointing results due to reliance on third party tools, Scirra decided that the answer was in-house. Developing their own export options has resulted in their flagship product - Construct2 - being one of the most robust HTML 5 game development tools around today.
If it can be done, someone on the web will show you how to do it!

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Post » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:25 pm

@michael

I think it ultimately comes down to what possible for one man to do.

Creating in house wrappers for desktop and mobile would require an immense amount of work. It might be possible for Ashley to do it -- especially if he decided to fork some of the extant export options into C2 specific versions -- but it would mean all other new features grinding to a halt.

He's said as much before, and it's true.

Let's face it: shiny new features might not be as important to hardcore users as stability, better UI/workflow, and better export options...but Scirra's target markets (those who want to make a good looking game with minimal programming) are much more likely to care about shaders and shadows.

Scirra is a small business operating off a 'pay once-own forever' model, supplemented by academic licenses (potentially lucrative, but who knows how that's going).

They HAVE to pull in new customers. Every day, every week, every month.

Creating and maintaining in-house wrappers equals a dearth of shiny new features. Which equals less new customers.

No customers equals no money. No money equals game over. :(

The various options have been gone over time and again, but it all boils down to hiring some additional programming help. That's not a cheap proposition. Maybe Scirra is doing well enough now to swing it. Maybe they aren't.

One funding option would be to crowdfund the development of the dedicated exporters. I think this is an option that should be seriously considered. I understand that this goes against the 'pay-once' model in some ways, but ultimately I think there are a substantial number of people using C2 who would be willing to pitch in...especially those who are actually making part of their living off it.

Any way you slice it though, it means bringing in external help...or maybe Ashley could hire @rexrainbow to work on some shiny new plugins for a few months while he slaves away at taming the beast of the buggy webkit. :mrgreen:
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Post » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:53 pm

FYI, for the short term, anyone having this problem should sign up on github and register a comment on this thread:

https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit/issues/2176

I did (even though I'm not exporting to mac ATM).

It's also possible to offer a 'bounty' (ie., a cash award) for the problem being corrected on Github. So, if it's a dire issue, there's that option.

If Ashley is going to bounce it over to the node webkit devs with issues like this, C2 users need to register on Github and let their voice be heard.
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Post » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:36 pm

No.
Like I said on page 2 "Scirra is no longer a bedroom company.".
I paid money for this product and other did as well. That means they are obligated to support every single issue I or any others are having with this product.
I'm not going to spend my time on "some developers" websites asking or rather begging them to fix issues I have in completely different application.
And like I said again, Node-Webkit is integral part of C2 editor. All issue related to it should be reported here and only here.

It looks like Ashley can not understand the gravity of this situation, that people actually use this software for a living.
If this ridiculousness will not change or if Ashley won't acknowledge this situation any time soon then no matter how I love C2 I'm sorry but I'm out.
I simply can not rely on something that is working correctly only when the stars align and the weather is fine.
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Post » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:51 pm

TiAm wrote:Creating in house wrappers for desktop and mobile would require an immense amount of work. It might be possible for Ashley to do it -- especially if he decided to fork some of the extant export options into C2 specific versions -- but it would mean all other new features grinding to a halt.

He's said as much before, and it's true.

Let's face it: shiny new features might not be as important to hardcore users as stability, better UI/workflow, and better export options...but Scirra's target markets (those who want to make a good looking game with minimal programming) are much more likely to care about shaders and shadows.


It is no point having shiny new features if the end product can't be reliably shipped to your intended platform, even those who are not hardcore users will want friends to play their created work.

As @shinkan noted it is not our responsibility to lobby third party devs to fix bugs with exporters or pay someone else to do so, that responsibility lies solely with the developers of C2.

I for one have no problem with some kind of subscription payment model, not if it means getting rid of crappy third party components.

You simply can't keep passing the buck - if you do, the hardcore users will jump ship, and the above scenario of possible history outcomes for C2 may indeed be Que sara sera.....
If it can be done, someone on the web will show you how to do it!

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Post » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:45 pm

michael wrote:...

BUT it will definitely mean well written and robust export options that work best for Construct2.

...

Whenever you are in a chain, you're only as good as the weakest link.


Do you really believe that Scirra, no matter how many employees gets, could really compete with number of contributors and man-hour spent in development of Chromium and Nodejs? And i'm just talking desktop here, i won't even touch mobile. You're getting robust as it gets in the world of javascript games.

And that gets us to your second point i would like to address. You're always in a chain and depending on some third party software. You're using Windows, remember? Even if you go down and write in pure assembly, you still have some hardware beneath your code which is out of your control. Things are like that, get used to it.


shinkan wrote:I paid money for this product and other did as well. That means they are obligated to support every single issue I or any others are having with this product.

....

It looks like Ashley can not understand the gravity of this situation, that people actually use this software for a living.


Unfortunately, no. They are obligated to send you an installer for their product called 'Construct 2'. That's same as arguing that when you buy a car, the producer of the car is responsible to support every issue you have with that car.

Regarding using this software for a living, it's just your risk to take, and expect to provide solutions without first checking if they can be implemented.

I feel like we're becoming a bunch of spoiled kids without seeing how many advanced technologies we're given to use without thinking about them. Almost every project created with C2 could fall into category of "Chrome experiments".


And regarding NW and problems with it, my only words to you is:

Fork it, read the source, identify your bugs, fix em and continue with your game. If you're polite, send a merge request and specify which bug you're fixing. We would be still stuck with awesomium if it weren't a bunch of people spending their time fixing and creating NW for zero money so we can complain here how it doesn't work.

Please keep in mind, C2 is still young, no matter how mature it looks. Scirra is doing a superb job.

Could it be better? Sure, it could. If you don't like it, go use Unity. You'll see the grass is not so greener on the other side, and the problems are similar.
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Post » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:15 am

The man who makes a solid C2 wrapper and puts it on the Scirra store will be a rich man indeed.

For the purposes of chucking my hat in the ring - I'd happily contribute a few hundred to the hypothetical "make a wrapper" fund.
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Post » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:33 am

@JohnnySheffield
Your answer sounds like one of those fanboys I post earlier about, who can't see real issues with C2 - and I'm not talking about current exporters problem.
So yeah, I'm sorry but I won't even bother to answer to your points.
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Post » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:44 am

shinkan wrote:@JohnnySheffield
Your answer sounds like one of those fanboys I post earlier about, who can't see real issues with C2 - and I'm not talking about current exporters problem.
So yeah, I'm sorry but I won't even bother to answer to your points.

@shinkan

That's cool.

Thankfully C2 isn't the only tool i'm using for creating, so i don't get bothered when a tool designed to create javascript games doesn't work properly as a native application.

Each task requires it's own tool. That's why there are plenty of languages, engines and devices to choose from.
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Post » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:27 am

That's same as arguing that when you buy a car, the producer of the car is responsible to support every issue you have with that car.

Lol, do you own a car? Ever bought one? Of course they have to. And that thing is called "warranty". Of course as long as the issue is not made of the user own actions/fault. Butif we suddenly jumped into "law and legalities" - C2 is being advertised as having various multi-platform wrappers, which as of now - is a FALSE advertisment. And if someone would feel like it - he has all the right to bring Scirra to court. And he would win. Of course i don't want this to happend, but yeah - its a totaly legit and possible reality.

And no, Scirra is not young. If it appears young to you - then i don't know what is old in your dictionery. Microsoft? Apple?
They (Scirra) are old and qualified enough.
I hate when you guys play this "overprotective card" whenever someone says anything not-good about Scirra. You treat them like some kind of retards who need to be comforted and defended all time. Thats the "constructive criticism" (which Shinkan has been talking about) which is no where to be found. Only "yay"s, "bravo's" and a lot of clapping hands. With sweets and sugar you can only go so far.

"There, there little Scirra, its alright, dont listen to those jerks. You are great and awesome and they can go kiss their own ass. Everything is gonna be alright i promise, hush hush~".
It's disgusting.

5 years ago i've made a choice. I decided to go with CC. Which then evolved into C2. Now i am 30 years old, with wife and 3 years old son. My and my family future depends on Construct. Do i like it or not. Those 5 years has been already spent and i am really in no position to turn away now. Its too late. But i also believe its way too soon to judge my choice, and you telling me i was stupid to pick C2 is plain insulting.

I am NOT here to troll or argue, especially with someone who (for some reason) cannot see the big picture. But bottomline - i await and EXPECT a solution to be found. And i have ALL the rights to do so. Because the "car i bought" is suddenly missing wheels. And i am not in a mood to push it down the street from now on. That was not part of the deal. When money lands on table - things gets serious. This is how the world works. Do you like it or not.
Last edited by irbis on Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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