My 3¢ about c2 and c3

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:18 pm

newt wrote:"It is a creative process for those who figure things out, but for all rest IT IS NOT."

You've just pointed out a pretty big issue with plugs. If you take too much of the process out, the process of learning, no one will be able to figure out better ways to do things.
If all you are doing is copy and paste, then we are failing at teaching as well.


I recently saw this talk by Bret Victor. It has some examples of how an IDE can inspire (or not) a developer by allowing him or her to interact with the code and also how the code can be clearly related with what it does at runtime. I feel like this is the right way to go for a game development engine, the platformer example in his talk clearly shows the power behind this kind of approach.

I know that for a programmer that can interpret code into images and gameplay mechanics in his/her mind, this might look obscuring and too restricting, it takes away from low level experimentation, but for a creator's point of view, it's just liberating. Eventually, everyone has to learn the basics in programming, but while I don't have to learn how to code from scratch a platform behavior in C2 (although I find the one existing with C2 very restricting), I do have to workaround a bunch of other, also basic imo, things.

As @megatronx stated, if something is being used by a lot of people that copy someone else's solution, then it should be ironed out and be included as a standard feature by default. Debating about something that perhaps can be done by other means or with an 3rd party plug/software, when it is considered essential and/or very helpful to have within a creative environment, doesn't help either side of the argument. I think :)
composer - multimedia artist
www.eli0s.com/en/
B
69
S
27
G
6
Posts: 1,146
Reputation: 10,379

Post » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:42 pm

X + cos(angle) * dist, Y + sin(angle) * dist
I dare say the most inspiring formula there is, and we don't even have an expression for it.
I would also say that if it doesn't inspire, you need to find out why it should.
Image ImageImage
B
172
S
50
G
183
Posts: 8,443
Reputation: 115,605

Post » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:49 pm

newt wrote:X + cos(angle) * dist, Y + sin(angle) * dist
I dare say the most inspiring formula there is, and we don't even have an expression for it.
I would also say that if it doesn't inspire, you need to find out why it should.


I agree that learning is good. But math might not inspire if it's not someones priority. I am inspired by music from romantic period. It's different form of math. There is a need to remember that knowing a lot doesn't mean understanding a lot.

Anyway, I my goal is to encourage for plugins to be expanded in such way that all major and today's standards are there ready use, freeing so much of needed time, for more creativity, learning, and experimentation with innovative ideas.
Last edited by megatronx on Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My professional Royalty Free Music at Scirra Assets Store
--------------------------------
Specs: i5 2500, 16gb of ram, gtx 770, win 7, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, Mackie mr8mk2, Alesis 320, browsing the net on chrome.
B
93
S
30
G
22
Posts: 1,987
Reputation: 20,203

Post » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:42 pm

@newt , that's interesting. I am glad that the current C2 workflow doesn't limit your creative abilities, though, evidently, it lacks some favorite expressions, and I am also happy that you get your inspiration from math!
Clearly, you are more intellectual than me, I don't doubt about that! If this is your point, then you are spot on!

However, if I was capable of understanding this formula of yours, would I have been a better creator? I mean, does this formula help me create better environments in my scenes? Does it help to make better interactions, animations, gameplay elements, will this inspiration that I'll get from your formula help me get rid the frustration I get every time I want to lit a scene, create menus, paths, reflections, each and every-time I skip storytelling elements like multi-line dialogs or cut-scenes because they are too hard to manage with code and very complicated to call with actions..?

Perhaps it wouldn't have helped on the above, but I could have been a better person... I don't know. For now, with my current skill-set and limited brain power, I am dependent on other people, smarter people, to provide me with the tools that will allow me to make up for my ignorance, by being productive in areas that I was blessed to be more adept. I rely on those people to help, not question the need for help based on their abilities, but based on the gravity of the argument, taking in to account that is supposed to be a game creation tool that democratizes creativity by eliminating the need to code, this isn't a 64k scene contest!

Anyway, I don't meant for this to come up harsh, but I feel that sometimes you have a tendency to belittle others, especially when you find what they ask to be trivial to you.
composer - multimedia artist
www.eli0s.com/en/
B
69
S
27
G
6
Posts: 1,146
Reputation: 10,379

Post » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:16 pm

Actually... yes, even the belittling, which I do too much, not to incite, but to challenge. If it's too harsh, I apologise.

Anyway, yes the formula could be used in many of those, like menus and paths especially.

Take megatronx's issue with pathfinder, its node based, a bunch of lines pointing at each other, and the algo describes perfectly a line between two points.
It could be used to move those tanks, and allow the control to keep them apart.
Image ImageImage
B
172
S
50
G
183
Posts: 8,443
Reputation: 115,605

Post » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:17 pm

@newt , I don't mind harsh, if it it's getting somewhere. I am afraid yours is just counter productive. Imagine someone posting in your clipping mask topic "duh, why don't you see how the alien shooter demo is made, also there are many other examples around that do masking...". This wouldn't have been a productive answer, right? A capx that demonstrates a solution would have been better.

A better example would be this: I consider my self a musician, when someone asks me something I find trivial about music, I wont' answer them with the terminology, nor I will send them looking for the definition on a theory book, I don't expect them to have to learn music theory just to find the answer on their problem. I'll try my best to explain in simple words what is the essence in their inquiry, why is that and how they can recognize it by themselves in the future...

I guess it's a thing of preference and approach, and that's that.
composer - multimedia artist
www.eli0s.com/en/
B
69
S
27
G
6
Posts: 1,146
Reputation: 10,379

Post » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:34 pm

newt wrote:Actually... yes, even the belittling, which I do too much, not to incite, but to challenge. If it's too harsh, I apologise.

Anyway, yes the formula could be used in many of those, like menus and paths especially.

Take megatronx's issue with pathfinder, its node based, a bunch of lines pointing at each other, and the algo describes perfectly a line between two points.
It could be used to move those tanks, and allow the control to keep them apart.


I used ro0j's help for pushing out object, which I'm thenkful for, even thought they do get stuck in solids at times (which I will investigate further), and with pathfinding, units loose their formations, build with events I copied from rts demo. On the side note, the example from c2 demo however breaks easily when I'm clicking in faster manner, making those tanks end up on top of each other anyway ( but i don't know if it is using that math equation or not).

And that's the point: instead of working on my game, I have to spend time on fixing plugin issues and hack trough limitations. In that instance building game with event's only would maybe let avoid those issues, but in a none-programming environment, that is self -contradictory from the get go. Events work best to in setting conditions for plugins, but when it comes to dynamics, they fail (collisions anyone? what about input repressions? ).

I remember spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to do sequencing. Sequencing plugin would sort that all out. Ultimately i figured it out, with the help of fantastic MoveTo plugin ( which should be in vanilla ed) but then setting it all up requires a lot of fiddling around, constantly switching views, and even going as far as creating parser and own scripting language and then need to type it all in per object. Now that is far away from none-programming.

I also made key rebinding that is also suitable for unlimited number of players, including ai, working from single set of events. But there should be plugin for that. Oh and I had to use Advanced Platforming plugin, because the vanilla one was causing lag when operating more then one character.

I've build full rpg system. And a level editor. Dynamic music system. Perfectly lopping levels. And many more advance systems and gameplay parts, and all made in such way that at any time, anything can use any part of those systems. Those are possible but resource wasting. When it comes to actual gameplay which brings excitements and action, then extensive hacking starts, and more often then not it all becomes looking and feeling rather clunky, unless it stays close to limited functionality of current plugins. And what I did was universal and evented as optimal as possible, and in way that anything can be used at anytime in any context and in any type of game. And I realized I've build an engine on top of other engine, trying to compensate lack of functionality. And then I thought what's the point? I already bought engine with editor. All of that could have been done in plugins. Plugin for stats, level editor, even dynamic music plugin. Because looking for most optimal ways, we all program exactly the same things in c2 to compensate it lacking in many areas! But all we do is reinventing the wheel.

And I agree, and been vocal about the need for curves system as maths overlay, path's editor, and all stuff we were saying for years now.
It all needs to be added, streamlined and glitches fixed ( platform plugin will stop movement if there is a spike of one pixel in the ground or by holding jump, you can get glued to object representing ceilings ).

The point is obvious: that math should be optional, replaced with visual approach and with completed and new plugins, and also actions and conditions that take more variety of scenarios under consideration, that bring groups of several events in to one.

@eli0s We musicians see world in a different way then scientists. We do have understanding of logic, actions and consequences, but simultaneously we understand the human element, simplicity and intuitionism :)
My professional Royalty Free Music at Scirra Assets Store
--------------------------------
Specs: i5 2500, 16gb of ram, gtx 770, win 7, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, Mackie mr8mk2, Alesis 320, browsing the net on chrome.
B
93
S
30
G
22
Posts: 1,987
Reputation: 20,203

Post » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:39 am

@megatronx I also believe in having some more plugins integrated for some functionality will help a lot of users. But there's an other important aspect: keeping the event system as general as possible to make users able to design any logic with it if they choose not to use plugins (and I have to say that imo Scirra is already doing good on the latter).

Personally, I'd love to see 3 plugins/functionality built into C3 (or even C2): MoveTo, Canvas and the ability to use normal maps for every sprite (maybe it would be best to include a new button into the animation editor just like the collision polygon and origin point buttons for normal maps).
B
137
S
33
G
17
Posts: 1,560
Reputation: 20,797

Post » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:45 am

newt wrote:X + cos(angle) * dist, Y + sin(angle) * dist
I dare say the most inspiring formula there is, and we don't even have an expression for it.
I would also say that if it doesn't inspire, you need to find out why it should.


Hey,

I was thinking about conversation in this topic. Friend encouraged me to continue a certain project I was affraid of finishing (quite personal and you want to have those working perfectly ). Thanks to your posts and Ro0j's help i got from him throughout the years, I decided to limit using plugins and do as much possible with events. So far it seams to work better then with plugins. But I'd like to ask you if you could explain this math formula to me, what exactly does it do?

Thx!


@glerikud I think move too should also be an action. Overall there should be more target action, as well as option to pin to image points. More actions is something I'm thinking often about too.

Btw, does every tick: set position to img point is as efficient as PinTo?
My professional Royalty Free Music at Scirra Assets Store
--------------------------------
Specs: i5 2500, 16gb of ram, gtx 770, win 7, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, Mackie mr8mk2, Alesis 320, browsing the net on chrome.
B
93
S
30
G
22
Posts: 1,987
Reputation: 20,203

Post » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:41 am

megatronx wrote:Hey,

I was thinking about conversation in this topic. Friend encouraged me to continue a certain project I was affraid of finishing (quite personal and you want to have those working perfectly ). Thanks to your posts and Ro0j's help i got from him throughout the years, I decided to limit using plugins and do as much possible with events. So far it seams to work better then with plugins. But I'd like to ask you if you could explain this math formula to me, what exactly does it do?

Thx!


@glerikud I think move too should also be an action. Overall there should be more target action, as well as option to pin to image points. More actions is something I'm thinking often about too.

Btw, does every tick: set position to img point is as efficient as PinTo?

The formula is to calculate the position of an object(position) based on an angle and distance and the starting point (X,Y) of another object(position)

Image
Position written next to the objects are from the editor, just so you can see there placement there.

Regarding the every tick and pin to. Im pretty sure its the same. There might be a different to when the position change takes place. As the pin to might happen during the first period of a tick, where as a every tick might happen depending on where you put it in the code. But resource wise I don't think there is any different, not 100% sure but close enough that I wouldn't bother about it :D
B
44
S
11
G
2
Posts: 1,182
Reputation: 6,848

PreviousNext

Return to Construct 2 General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests