Native Desktop Exporter for Construct 3

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:22 pm

@facecjf: it says publish to desktop and NOT that it exports native code.
If anybody could write an exporter that takes html5/javascript to let's
say c++ or c# and integrates magically all needed libraries for every desktop
platform he would be rich. Let's face it, you get more than enough for
the price that Scirra took from you. Nobody holds you back too hire some
programmers for some thousands of dollars that make you the exporter you need.

I also didn't say nobody can code correct, don't quote me wrong! But i think a lot of
things can be optimized already in C2 and more with the SDK that is open for everybody.

And for Unity, if you really want make good games with it you have to code anyway and
don't think that the Unity export works magically perfect on every device! The people that
make serious projects also need to optimize their games for the platforms they target.
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Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:42 pm

@Fimbul Those discussions were made by people who were basically told "Don't worry, native desktop will be there too!". There were many people who were just worried that desktop wouldn't have export (more than the results you've cherry picked). Also, they were told to pick "any optional/extra" platforms, so they were discussing things that would already feel less important than desktop.

@Chupup Games That's true that we get a great product, but equally, they choose the price. If they sell the program for $2 instead of $100 while the program is worth $1000 that's their choice (although I think some competition laws come into play). But when they sell you something that is supposed to do X, Y, and Z for $100 and you get only X and Y then it doesn't matter how much the program is valued, they didn't sell you/deliver what they promised.

Also, it doesn't really "publish to desktop" if your game doesn't run properly!
Last edited by Jayjay on Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:44 pm

We're going over the same old points (20 page thread)... but I must point out again that the node-webkit jank issue is just one bug and will be fixed, it's not some fundamental limitation (IE11 proves that), and the 0.12 alpha is already out and available at http://www.scirra.com/nwjs and should be improved. I can't believe anyone would claim Google doesn't care, because their investment in HTML5 has been colossal.

Regarding reliability with native exporters, it is not necessarily any better. Browsers use software renderers and a long list of workarounds with ANGLE to work around a bunch of problems with graphics drivers. We have experienced this first hand with the C2 editor itself. So one of the disadvantages of native exporters is bugs like "game crashes on startup on any AMD Radeon 6xxx cards", or "mysterious rendering glitch on nVidia drivers older than v301.35". Debugging these issues can be brutally hard, companies like AMD are utterly useless at providing assistance (we've tried to get help for the C2 editor in the past), and driver update cycles are closer to "never" than the 6-weekly update cycle of modern browsers, which have generally solved all of this type of problem already thanks to their engineering resources and extensive hardware labs which they can test against. I am 100% certain this will be a big problem with any native exporters, on both desktop and mobile, and I don't think many people here recognise that.

Four and a half years ago I was talking about native exporters. That was before any browser had WebGL, Internet Explorer 8 was in its prime (with no HTML5 support at all), and I think even before any browsers had optimised JIT compilation for Javascript, so they were all stuck in some form of interpreter mode. At that time it was far from clear that HTML5 could work well. The situation has changed radically. Also sometimes I wonder where all the people who strongly demanded (in threads not unlike this) that we make a Flash exporter have gone. I'm really glad we didn't! But at the time it was sometimes difficult to convey the direction things were going in, and how promising the future was. I guess that's still difficult to convey now as well.
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Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:02 pm

Amen to this! Things will get better for sure. The industry big players believe in HTML5 and so should we. It can come very fast and html5 games can be published on consoles, who knows...

And the most important thing is: It's not the tools that make a great game (or piece of art or whatever).
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Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:12 pm

@Chupup Games exactly... I never said Native Exporting.

The general consensus seems to be that C2 users just aren't optimizing enough (or doing things correctly). I have brought this up plenty. Regardless.. if a game is optimized to the teeth. Node can still break it.

You are absolutely right I could go hire a developer to make exporters for me. Though, I paid for software that says it does that already (I don't even care about the price $1 or $1000), and when it works it works great - But when it doesn't, than what? Force players to go play in a browser and use IE11? Plus there are countless other engines that offer this, so it is possible. (hard, but possible) The point is, no one wants to jump from C2 to another engine. I never felt like I haven't gotten my monies worth with C2 - It is in fact awesome, I use it daily. That's why people are wanting solid exporters.
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Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:18 pm

facecjf wrote:when it works it works great - But when it doesn't, than what?

With regards to node-webkit, you'd just roll back to the previous version. As I mentioned previously, due to exporter updates and the timing of this bug, it's been a bit awkward and as a result right now there is nothing to roll back to (except manually, which some users have done already).
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Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:32 pm

One more thing:

If you really think about, we are in a much better position with C2 than people that rely on something like, for example, Unity.
Why? Because C2 uses technologies that are open standard!
Node-Webkit don't is good enough? Sooner or later somebody makes something better.
Need a special exporter? Write your own or ask somebody!

What i want say is, it is much better to work with open source/open standard things than you are in the hands of one company.
Look Adobe with Flash for example. No more new Flash! What is with all the developers that invest time and money in it?
Also, Unity might have all exporters now... but what if they start one fight with Apple ( this is not so unlikly, when you see the law fights Apple had in the past with other companies) and exclude their iOs exporter? Nobody can do anything about, because Unity is closed source. (C2 is too, but not the underlying tecnology of the engine)
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Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:05 pm

In the end of the day, Making one language large enough to do anything with is the best idea, rather than working with strictly native code all the time. Native code is the foundation of the compatibility with HTML5, so modifying the native code can break the nonnative. It reminds me of how Game Maker's GML language broke hundreds of times with even stable updates through the years, and even Epic's Unreal Engine's Unreal Script. Though, this doesn't change the fact that it makes things easier for all programmers alike. It allows you to get the job done faster, and focus more on the final product than the struggle to get there, because there is so much support from outside sources. On top of all that, Google has put a lot of effort into reinforcing this standing, using HTML5 extensively and implementing ways to optimize it across many different platforms. Without Google, we wouldn't have HTML5, and if anyone argues the possible success that can be achieved with HTML5, just go on Github and search just about anything. There are very few search topics that could result in less Javascript source code than anything else.
It's been proven that the philosophy of teamwork drastically improves the speed of which something can be done. The fact that there are more supporters of HTML5 in the industry shows that it's the most backed language, and that's not a bad thing, especially with as well as it runs. As of this day, I haven't experienced near as many issues designing games or anything else using HTML5. It's obvious enough that it will get even better, and at the rate that the improvement is going, many more great things will come of it's usage.

Obviously Google cares about the entire topic though, or they would have never open sourced Chromium and allowed for the creation of Node Webkit, which is quite frankly, extremey useful.

And to top it all off, Construct 2 is a much more affordable program than anything of it's type. Overall, it just beats most things.
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Post » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:24 pm

I have to agree with @Ashely here, forget Unity, if I want to use Unity, I will use it's core system
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Post » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:16 am

Well this has sure been a hot topic, even if most of it is off topic for the OP.

But I think it is clear enough by now. A desktop exporter for Windows (aside form NW) will not happen. And I certainly think Ashley knows the pitfalls he wants to avoid better than anyone here, and we should respect him for that.

It seams to me this OP has been answered.

So come on @Ashley lets get on with building the much needed new editor for C3.

As I have already stated - not matter what direction Scirra takes I am in already.
If it can be done, someone on the web will show you how to do it!

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