nw.dll weighs ~90mb of my 130 mb game, what is it?

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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:38 pm

Hmm, it seams that I have had temporary multiple sclerosis.
I asked about this once in the past:

viewtopic.php?f=147&t=165878&p=1002100&hilit=nwjs+export+size#p1002100

But I dont think I caught the jist of what R0J0hound had written there, about exporting the NWjs as an empty file and then adding the rest of the content on top. That or I was just too excited about C2, as (mostly) everything was going smoothly for me and I have adopted C2 as synonym for rapid prototyping at that moment.

Well it seems the story with C2 for me (as pollitically uncorrect as this might sound) thus far is analogus to that of a girlfriend with a wooden leg. Everything with her is great, her body (at least the rest of it) her charater, humour, intelligence is up to par but there is just that part which prevents you from totally falling in love with her, probably due to fear of what might others say (the point of this story not being that one should not care what others say), but more importatnly how this will turn out in the future.
The others in C2 example are the potential customers, and me myself I am not sure if to continue my game, as I plan on working on it for the next year, and Im not sure how this 130mb can impact on my work in the end.

Now Im not assuming anything over my in dev game, but my hopes are high which is quite normal especially for a person that is developing a game for the first time (even after reading loads of articles about the traps of indie dev, one being that people have too high expectations).
I want to try and make as little mistakes as I can.

I only wish this size issue was somehow mentioned earlier, especially because its not available in the free version. Where could I have learned this?

Now the fact that I am venting my frustration here and not just leaving C2 proves that C2 is a joy to work with at least for me. And nowhere will I mention any competition (even if I do end up changing programs in the end) which only proves that its not my desire to drive people off.

I have found a thread here on the forums (lost the link now - will relink once I find it again) which states that the NW.js export content on the get go weighed about 50mb in the past (for the year 2012/2013 if I recall correctly).
Now as years went by chrome got more and more bloated, so it seems. And this will be true for the comming years no doubt.

@newt

With all due respect but comparing a situation to a worse situation is just comforting oneself and not looking at the picture.
Saying if I had one arm chopped off, that if would have been worse if I had both my arms chopped off is just to comfort oneself. It would be much more harder to compare oneself to a person that has both arms.
I have no knowledge about Crosswalk export at this moment, but I would like to look at this situation how its stands.
Last edited by Solomon on Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:54 pm

Eisenhans wrote:There are a few people who are notoriously sensitive about file sizes.
But, luckily, almost none of the relevant reviewers and curators are. They will roast you for all kinds of things, but download size is a non-issue.

I'd be more wary about solid performance and well functioning input.


How can I be sure that the file size will not impact my performance down the road in C2? Thas is my point in this thread. I have read around that games bigger in size cause problems in C2. That is my main worry.

Also it seems that I am sensitive about file size. Im not too keen on having that thought lurking at the back of my mind during development.
If I make a game that weights 5mb, why should I have it weigh 135 mb? How does that make sense?
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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:35 pm

Solomon wrote:How can I be sure that the file size will not impact my performance down the road in C2? Thas is my point in this thread. I have read around that games bigger in size cause problems in C2. That is my main worry.


The games in question had problems only on specific platforms (iirc the mac NW.js was the culprit, which has been notoriously broken) and with a way larger size, several hundred of mb. Your main worry should be: performance. And by performance I mean: framerate. Everything else is quite far down the list.
Also, if you make a larger game, you should have a rough idea already about the amount of assets, so you should be able to estimate the final size by now, at least ballpark-wise. How much is it?

If I make a game that weights 5mb, why should I have it weigh 135 mb? How does that make sense?

Well, you did buy a HTML5 engine ;) There has to be a way to run it, and at the moment, you have to distribute it with the game.
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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:56 pm

@Eisenhans

It really blows my mind that you are still arguing in favour of C2 in light of my arguments:
1) Lack of ability to test NW.js export in free version - lack of information anywhere in plain sight where one could get to know this.
2) 130mb as handicap straight off the bat.

Your argument: - well you bought a html5 engine (...) you have to distribute it with the game. What has that got to do with anything? I got all the information about C2 from the Scirra main page, from the information posted on the forums (all that I could find and thought as relative) and from most importantly from the free version. Nowhere could I foresee this. Where else could I have gone to learn this?
How about having a NW.js export in free version with a big massive Scirra watermark and a 320x240 resolution limit? And a big notice stating: this NW.js export is from the free C2 version, and is not allowed for commercial distribution. And 20 seconds play time the most before the NW.js window closes. Now does that not sound fair?

At the moment my game weighs maybe 5 mb with about ~20 something sprites, 1 backdrop and 495 events - mostly core mechanics. The sprites are on purpose retro as in pixel graphics. I might end up with approximately 250~300 mb in game size from my calculations (as I have not yet decided to stay with retro or go with more complex design). Maybe. Add to that ~130 handicap. And what if I would like to create a bigger game in the future? Remember I am investing my time in learning C2, I wouldnt like to find out in the future that I have to switch engines.
Are you willing to sign a contract with me assuring me that I will have no problems with perfomance once I create a bigger game? Because you sure sound like you are confident. Just out of curiousity what was the largest game size wise you have created in C2? (not talking about content but just size). How many games have you exported using NW.js, and most importantly shipped? Only on that basis can you be so comfortable as to your arguments.
You might say that one can never be sure when creating Mb heavy games in any engine. That might be true but the fact that there is a handicap +130mb that has not been mentioned does not help.

If your gf/wife bought a dress with a hole in the back especially to go to a play at the theathre, would you tell her that its doesnt matter as mostly she will be sitting through the play? What if there is standing ovation? And what about the journey to and from the theathre?
Maybe a better comparison would be if she had bought clothes that had extra 50 kg weight, and you were about to go hiking.
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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:04 pm

The file size doesn't effect performance, so whether the runtime is 5 Mb or 500 Mb, it won't affect how things perform. As always your events, behaviors used and what is drawn is what affects the performance.

Now presumably nw.dll is the entire browser compiled with everything needed to display any webpage. Construct 2 probably only uses a small percentage of that but that would vary depending on what a project uses. I imagine it's possible to reduce the file size of nw.dll by re-compiling it from it's source code without some features. This is something independent from C2 so presumably someone on the internet has at least tried this before. I couldn't find any specific to nw.js but I have seen topics on other sites about doing this for Chrome.

I know little about it other than it takes hours to compile google chrome. I'm also assuming disabling a feature is a simple thing to do, which it probably isn't since the Chrome developers have no reason to disable most features once it's added. Anyway the short of it is it's probably possible to reduce file size if you go back to chrome's source, though it's probably not worth the time to create and maintain something like that as Chrome constantly gets updates. At least that's my 2c.
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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:16 pm

Image

That's my game, in the sig.

Performance is outstanding. Not a concern with the latest chromium powered NWjs.

That's not to say there's no issues, there certainly are, but performance for desktop is not one of them.
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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:31 pm

Solomon wrote: I might end up with approximately 250~300 mb in game size from my calculations (as I have not yet decided to stay with retro or go with more complex design). Maybe. Add to that ~130 handicap.


No problems there. There are games (a lot) larger than that made with C2 available on Steam.

If your gf/wife bought a dress with a hole in the back especially to go to a play at the theathre, would you tell her that its doesnt matter as mostly she will be sitting through the play? What if there is standing ovation? And what about the journey to and from the theathre?
Maybe a better comparison would be if she had bought clothes that had extra 50 kg weight, and you were about to go hiking.


OK. :shock:
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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:33 pm

Anyone tried any of the other html5 wrappers?
What are the sizes of those?
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Post » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:52 pm

to me NW.js file size is not a problem, but I feel is (as I previously posted it) not reliable.
With the last alpha and latest C2 version I cannot use the debugger as an example, and with just a prototype game I have sometimes slow downs in fps which are sudden drops.

In my case, I'm (sadly) slowly moving to Game Maker which represents for me to learn a new software plus learn the coding language as well.
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Post » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:45 am

@R0j0hound
Well I wouldnt want to get my hands dirty in the source files for chrome, as obvioulsy I shy away from non-visual programing and the likes.
I would rather use that time to focus on designing my game, as is the idea of visual programing software. Altough I hear what you are saying regarding the size matter not affecting performance, since you have some experience in C2 judging by your coding examples in the forums.
I just would like to ask have you not seen posts that state something different in regards to file sizes above 600mb?

@Silverforce
Thanks for your screen and information regarding this issue. What is interesting to me is that your dll is around 66mb and mine is around 90mb, while my game is around 130mb with 20 sprites with sizes lower than 128x128 or 64x64 pixels for each sprite and as I mentioned before 495 events and 1 particle system with a 12x12 sprite so far.

This is my screen:
Image

Could you roughly estimate your event number, spirte number and game size while having the nw.dll at 66mb?
What is interesting that when exporting an empty scene today, with no sprites or no events I ended up with a nw.dll that wieghed 129 mb(!) as I did end up mentioning earlier in the thread. Just crazy stuff.
Is it possible for you to export an empty scene with NW.js and see what size is your nw.dll file in that empty scene?

Regarding your other problems with your game do they strictly have to do with NW.js export? (not meaning to go off topic as this thread is about the nw.dll file being large and no info speaking of this anywhere to be seen, but I am curious regarding this matter)

@newt
It would be nice to know any other wrapping alternatives, perphaps Ill look for those on the forums but once again, the time I spend on this I would rather focus on game dev.

@FraktalZero
Regarding the debugger, it seems to work for me now. Have you been messing with holding down the ctrl key and scrolling the mouse wheel up and down while in the browser? I did that while thinking Ive switched windows and it somehow impacted the performance of the debugger as it maxed out the quality of the html5 output in the browser I think. Altough be warned to this at your own risk I spend some time trying to fix this, in the end I did but dont remember how exaclty (this has something to do with scaling up and down the content/text in firefox).

As for NW.js being not reliable, what arguments have you got behind this? Just curious as we are close to the subject (if you want to share).


I really do wonder what exactly goes in there (I roughly know its all to do with runfiles for chromium standalone) and why does my empty Nw.js file differ to others (if that is the case).
It would be nice if anyone else could export an empty NW.js file and compare the nw.dll size.

I am curious wether this the size of this nw.dll increases with the size/concent of the NW.js file? But that doesnt make sense when an empty NW.js I made had a ~129 mb nw.dll file size. :o

(EDIT: the nw.dll size is different for both win32 and win64 - on win32 it weighs ~60mb, on win64 around ~90.)
Last edited by Solomon on Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
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