Should I use C2 for a large game?

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Fri May 10, 2013 9:53 pm

[QUOTE=shinkan] You will never find perfect tool for doing everything everybody wants. C2 is a perfect tool for any 2d game genre (not 2.5d, not 3d). It's more like a game engine or framework and it's only up to You how You want to use it.[/QUOTE]

Right, and I think that's an important part of the conversation. Is C2 right for every game, and the answer's clearly not. It *is* however, marvelously suited for certain types of game, and I think we're exploring that here.


[QUOTE=shinkan] Inventory? I've made full inventory system with options like examine items/logs, read logs, combine items, use items.. in one day using arrays and families - with only simple knowledge about arrays. [/QUOTE]

Exactly, it could be done, but it's not naturally built in to the engine. With your experience, and knowledge of arrays, you were able to create that capability, but someone with no knowledge of collision physics can make a couple clicks and have a functioning platform, because that is built into the game. On a fundamental level, C2 supports platformers, and similarly does not have that same support for fundamental components of RPGs, as you illustrated.RandomExile2013-05-10 21:54:16
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Post » Fri May 10, 2013 10:00 pm

Awww! TL22, you actually implemented a "hug" action! That was sweet. I felt bad I couldn't hug the Dad good night, though. =P
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Post » Sat May 11, 2013 3:42 am

Making inventories and UI can be tricky, but if you practice doing it you'll learn a lot and become awesome.
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Post » Sat May 11, 2013 4:59 am

[QUOTE=RandomExile] [QUOTE=shinkan] You will never find perfect tool for doing everything everybody wants. C2 is a perfect tool for any 2d game genre (not 2.5d, not 3d). It's more like a game engine or framework and it's only up to You how You want to use it.[/QUOTE]

Right, and I think that's an important part of the conversation. Is C2 right for every game, and the answer's clearly not. It *is* however, marvelously suited for certain types of game, and I think we're exploring that here.


[QUOTE=shinkan] Inventory? I've made full inventory system with options like examine items/logs, read logs, combine items, use items.. in one day using arrays and families - with only simple knowledge about arrays. [/QUOTE]

Exactly, it could be done, but it's not naturally built in to the engine. With your experience, and knowledge of arrays, you were able to create that capability, but someone with no knowledge of collision physics can make a couple clicks and have a functioning platform, because that is built into the game. On a fundamental level, C2 supports platformers, and similarly does not have that same support for fundamental components of RPGs, as you illustrated.[/QUOTE]


I'm thinking like Arima that you can do any kind of 2D games with C2.
The fact that "there isn't an inventory plugin" doesn't prevent from being able to build such a system.
I believe that's actually one of the major strength of C2 that it doesn't restrict you to only a certain specific type of system and actually allows you to make the system you want, that will be adapted to the game you're making.
Sure you can have a platformer prototype in matter of seconds. Though in my experience, I've always had to build on/around that behavior or even make my own platformer behavior/system in events to really get what I was looking for.
The platformer behavior, like the sprite plugin, is a brick, a tool.
And the platformer behavior REQUIRES the sprite plugin.

Are you asking for some kind of inventory plugin ?
The issue there is about what you would expect from such a plugin actually, and if one that brings enough "general" features could really be made.
IMO, it's "easier" to propose a "mainstream" platform behavior that offers "common" features. I'm not sure the same could be done with an inventory. Apparently it also appears platformers are a kind of game that appeals to a lot of aspiring game makers.

The very way the inventory works depends on your game mechanics.
Then, the way to make an inventory HUD is pretty different considering if your project/inventory accepts mouse inputs, keyboard inputs or/and touch inputs. Are you making an adventure game, a JRPG, a platformer, ... ?
I believe those games don't expect the same kind on inventory, and what this system does totally depends on how you're designing it.

Anyway, it could be an interesting challenge to propose to the third-part plugin makers, if one isn't already around.
What should a basic plugin do ? I'm interested in the opinions of everybody on that point.

And once again, I believe it's not because you can't throw a "all-made" plugin in your project that it means that C2 isn't (or is less) appropriate for it or the type of games it's used for. You have access to data structure objects like arrays or dictionary that are the fundamental components of an inventory system.

The only thing it means is that it will take a bit longer to make and requires a bit more knowledge on your part. A little more design too, but it's also part of the fun of game making imo.Kyatric2013-05-11 05:12:24
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Post » Sat May 11, 2013 6:13 am

[QUOTE=Arima]Showcase games will come with time.[/QUOTE]

I do hope you're right about showcase games coming with time. I think that's the number one thing we need for C2 to really take off. Prospective designers need to be able to see what they're shooting for, and what their devkit is truly capably of.

[QUOTE=Arima]I agree with Kyatric that C2 hasn't really been 'ready' for a large game for that long - certainly for less time than it would take to make a large game - which is a very major part of the reason why what C2 has had made with it are smaller games.[/QUOTE]

You guys are probably right, then. Typical development time for top-tier, full-sized games written in another platform I've been heavily involved with is about six months to a year, depending. So, I guess it depends on when we think a major project using C2 should have begun, and Kyatric's saying it's been fully up and running for about six months. Plus, you can't rush genius. =P

Re: Loot Pursuit, I think the take-away is that you are more important than any project, even one as beautiful as LP. LP, as envisioned, could indeed be that standout game you referenced ;)RandomExile2013-05-11 06:16:28
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Post » Sat May 11, 2013 4:13 pm

I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this but..

It's not that those in this community don't have talent, skills, good ideas etc. or never made a large-scale game before. It's that C2 isn't designed for large-scale game development by any means. It's designed with the single hobby developer in mind.

Everything about C2 is internal. The level editor, the event editor, the objects, the animations, the textures, the sounds. It's practically impossible to use C2 in a team and you know what teams offer? Large-scale games.

We don't have massive areas and entire worlds or even (good) tile-based games because you can't use external level editors.
We don't have heavy dialogue,inventories,world-maps,customizable characters, etc. because you can't really use external files. Project files are a temporary workaround at best.
We don't have lots of sound effects and music because you can only import .wav PCM which must then be converted into an unorganized project-bloating super folder of sounds.
We don't have solid, bug-free, ready-to-distribute games because all of that relies on 3rd party software seemingly shoehorned into C2 and forgotten about.

"Oh, well just use a project folder instead!"

Nope. You still have to add everything to your game inside the C2 editor else it's not recognized. So if you're in a team of 5, all building levels - each member will need a C2 license - all of the project's plugins - and the latest build, just to put his or her levels into the game. That applies to *everything*. There's SVN but that sounds like even more of a nightmare and I still don't see how C2 will pick up anything if it is added outside of the editor.

That's not to say it isn't currently possible to make a large-scale game in C2 - I'm working on 2 right now - but it's a dreadful process and I'm not sure we're going to get much farther without a number of changes and additions to C2. I've already had to cancel two others.Tokinsom2013-05-11 16:26:42
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Post » Sat May 11, 2013 6:16 pm

[QUOTE=Tokinsom] I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this but..

It's not that those in this community don't have talent, skills, good ideas etc. or never made a large-scale game before. It's that C2 isn't designed for large-scale game development by any means. It's designed with the single hobby developer in mind.

Everything about C2 is internal. The level editor, the event editor, the objects, the animations, the textures, the sounds. It's practically impossible to use C2 in a team and you know what teams offer? Large-scale games.

We don't have massive areas and entire worlds or even (good) tile-based games because you can't use external level editors.
We don't have heavy dialogue,inventories,world-maps,customizable characters, etc. because you can't really use external files. Project files are a temporary workaround at best.
We don't have lots of sound effects and music because you can only import .wav PCM which must then be converted into an unorganized project-bloating super folder of sounds.
We don't have solid, bug-free, ready-to-distribute games because all of that relies on 3rd party software seemingly shoehorned into C2 and forgotten about.

"Oh, well just use a project folder instead!"

Nope. You still have to add everything to your game inside the C2 editor else it's not recognized. So if you're in a team of 5, all building levels - each member will need a C2 license - all of the project's plugins - and the latest build, just to put his or her levels into the game. That applies to *everything*. There's SVN but that sounds like even more of a nightmare and I still don't see how C2 will pick up anything if it is added outside of the editor.

That's not to say it isn't currently possible to make a large-scale game in C2 - I'm working on 2 right now - but it's a dreadful process and I'm not sure we're going to get much farther without a number of changes and additions to C2. I've already had to cancel two others.[/QUOTE]

I agree.
I have followed construct from nearly the beginning. I loved construct when it first came out, and to be honest I really enjoy construct 2. I have discussed using C2 for some projects with the team I am working with and what it really comes down to is that it is not possible for us.

I still make heavy use of C2 for prototyping ideas and throwing together examples to help explain my thinking on our projects. After we knew that XNA is essentially dead we decided to move on to a technology that we knew would be supported for quite some time.

We even checked out the game making software including C2 and game maker. C2 in our opinion shines for hobby games, and pretty much rapid game creation. Game maker... heh, why in the world would we pay 500+ for a terrible GUI that gave us a sub-par scripting language. We ended up setting on libGDX, and have not looked back. However, C2 is still a very valuable tool for prototyping and even far more fantastic for creating interactive multimedia advertisements and videos.
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Post » Sat May 11, 2013 9:07 pm

It's because you're thinking as "a team", what i can understand of course.

But for a single developper, as I am, which not means a non-professional project, Construct 2 is very good to my opinion, for a 2D game.
It's really open, and you can easaly do all the "classics" you can encounter in a 2d game.

I'm more a designer than a programmer, and i'm on my own, and even if i can deal with some code, i'm not at all able to write one from A to Z, and that's not what i want to do.
For people like me , C2 is a very good solution, and will definitvely be when the webgl will be supported on mobile devices.

After all, it's also a question of "philosohy" : i tried GameSalad, Strencyl, GameMaker, and others, but the only one that talks to me is C2, and I think it's because it's just in the same "logic" as a software that i use everyday for my work as a designer : photoshop. (simple work on layers, for example)
Otherwise, I would have turn to a "real" developp program such as Corona. But in this style of software, easy to program, C2 is the best one i found, for me.

I love C2, I know its limits, and more than everything, i know the limits of the devices i'm developping for (mobiles).
When the dynamic memory usage will be supported, with for exemple CocoonJs (before the end of the month it seems, or with Ejecta), C2 will be a very very good option to develop for mobiles, and so other platforms, to my opinion.

C2 is growing up every month, as the HTML5 games, and I think it will be very intersting now, and in the future.
It's a kind of bet, the same as the team of C2 did.
I bet on it too.

(sorry for my bad english lol)goldentreee2013-05-11 21:41:39
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Post » Sun May 12, 2013 12:23 am

@Tokinsom - I haven't tried using c2 in a team environment, so I can't comment on that, but actually I agree with you about some of the problems you mentioned.

Keeping the wavs in the project seems to have no purpose and just wastes space, as they don't seem to be used for anything after conversion to ogg and aac (unless I'm missing something they're used for).

The level editor process is a somewhat cumsy in comparison to how smooth it was in CC. In CC, I could make the level editor save and then the level can then be immediately loaded. In c2, Saving the level results in it getting downloaded to my downloads folder, I need to reimport it into c2, make a new event for loading it because ajax can only select project files from a drop down menu and not a string, and then repreview to be able to access it.

I also agree that C2 should automatically add everything that's in the project's files folder when the project is loaded and previewed instead of needing to import them in c2's editor (or even maybe have a 'refresh' option for the right click menu of the filers folder as well). I think it's an unnecessary step, and it's obviously affecting you and your team.

Files should be able to be loaded with ajax via a string rather than a drop down menu. As it is every time a level is created another event needs to be made for it. This way we wouldn't need 100 events for load level1.json, level2.json, etc. We could just do load "level"&variable&".json" instead.

Some way to do file organization, a 'for each project file' condition and 'current file name' expression would also be nice. With file I/O like CC has we can know everything in the images folder on disk is an image, and in CC I can loop through with 'for each file' (in c2 there isn't any way I'm aware of to organize/loop through files like that) and load all the images into a palette that can be used to build levels from, without having to adjust the loading code every time a new image is added. Even just a way to loop through the project files in c2 and get the name of the current file to be able to compare the file name to determine the file type and what to do with it would enable us to do something similar.Arima2013-05-12 00:25:14
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Post » Sun May 12, 2013 1:46 am

@Arima Actually you can use "Request URL" to get a project file by string e.g. "Room_A_1.tmx"
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