So What Is Your Second Impression of C3 And Will You Buy?

Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:43 am

Was about to suggest that the game jam be related to benchmarking somehow, but it feels like I've said that before.
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Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:20 am

C2 inspired me to learn basic JavaScript programming, and for that I am very grateful. If c3 offered more than just renting c2 in a browser then it would have grabbed my interest, but the subscription model and its lack of progress over c2 has caused me to look at other engines. I don't believe c3 will be usable by serious devs for at least another 2 years - runtime re-write anyone?

If scirra used c2/c3 and their features to make top-notch games then many of the issues reported in these forums would have been fixed years ago. Armed with the disappointment that c3 appears to be in a cycle of indefinite amendment, I spent the last few weeks trying out Corona SDK, Unity and Godot Engine - all to compare to c2 html5 exports with other 'native' offerings.

Here's what I found:

C2 exports really don't perform well on low-end tech - and this is not always caused by the gpu. Something to do with using a full browser to do some simple maths and move a few objects, I guess. If scirra made games using their game editors then there would be universal acceptance that browser-wrapped JaveScript gives poor performance on low-end devices. A simple moving object and parallax background from a c2 export (wrapped in either phonegap or accelerated cocoon.io) ran at 15 fps on my Lenovo tablet. The same assets and a similar test from Unity, Godot and Corona all performed at 60 fps (Corona perf was truly amazing with physics as well...). The very same assets...

I think that the c2 editor is excellent, but the c3 editor feels slightly slower and offers less workspace to the user (bigger fonts and icons, like reading a news website in mobile-mode on a laptop). Not to my taste, but not truly terrible either. I have no idea how usable it will be or how it will perform when a complex project is loaded... Of the other engines I tried, Unity felt most visually comfortable to work in, but the API is truly complicated - Godot was the friendliest overall...

All game engines have bugs and require work-arounds for design limitations. However, with the recent announcement that the c3 runtime is to be re-written, I think it's safe to say that it will be a couple of years before this is finished and stable. It reminds me of the last few years of c2 development, where the excitement was found in adding new stuff rather than completely adding new stuff and then supporting it...

My main concern, however, was the poor performance of browser-wrapped exported games on low-end tech. For that reason above all I have decided to move on to use the Godot Engine - an excellent editor, used by the devs to make games, and with a less complicated API than Unity (based on Python, looks a bit like Lua). Who wants a full browser engine to run a 2d side-scroller?

c3 = not for me. I will occasionally tinker with c2 (where it's far easier to make plugins than it is for c3). Perhaps one day I will finish making a system to export layers into a Corona SDK project... :)
A big fan of JavaScript.
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Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:01 am

newt wrote:Was about to suggest that the game jam be related to benchmarking somehow, but it feels like I've said that before.


I think most people have just accepted by now the tradeoff between performance and ease of use. It may not be in their best interest to have a jam which could potentially focus on a downside and maybe highlight for some that Construct isnt always as fast as people think it should be. They may end up not subscribing.
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Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:30 am

My second impression is that I can not buy, only rent

I do not know why they say to buy when it is to rent
CODE FOR FUN
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Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:12 pm

newt wrote:Was about to suggest that the game jam be related to benchmarking somehow, but it feels like I've said that before.

I have a feeling the gamejam will be a disaster- using a buggy/untested product isn't going to go over well with people who want to make their games work in a short period of time.

Colludium wrote: I don't believe c3 will be usable by serious devs for at least another 2 years - runtime re-write anyone?

I have a similar feeling, but for different reasons- They are using the latest browser tech which isn't supported across all devices/computers. So it might take a couple years for everything to balance out. It's a good strategy for Scirra if they want to get a headstart, but I think it just means that for a while it's going to be messy.. Not everyone is going to have the right setup to use C3.
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Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:54 pm

Prominent wrote:
newt wrote:Was about to suggest that the game jam be related to benchmarking somehow, but it feels like I've said that before.

I have a feeling the gamejam will be a disaster- using a buggy/untested product isn't going to go over well with people who want to make their games work in a short period of time.


Well it's always been about what you can do with what you have. The problem starts when people equate what you shouldn't do, as something you can't do with the product.
What they have is viable, it's just going to be very niche, at least till some really big advances come around, cli exporter, new runtime, etc.
It pains me to say, but I just can't see the worth as is, not when I'm struggling with a saturated market, that this will only add to.
Not to mention that the C2 store seems to have stagnated in response.
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Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:11 pm

Colludium wrote: I don't believe c3 will be usable by serious devs for at least another 2 years - runtime re-write anyone?

I have a similar feeling, but for different reasons- They are using the latest browser tech which isn't supported across all devices/computers. So it might take a couple years for everything to balance out. It's a good strategy for Scirra if they want to get a headstart, but I think it just means that for a while it's going to be messy.. Not everyone is going to have the right setup to use C3.


Agreed, though the issue extends past people being able to use C3 to make games - it extends, to I think a greater degree, to people's ability to run games made in C3.

C2 wasn't capable of anything past a simple, low-end, highly buggy games for the first few years of its existence, but that was a LONG time ago in game dev tool years, and I have strong doubts any users will be willing to put up with those kind of issues these days in any substantial numbers. Certainly not enough to encourage buying into a subscription service.

So it's C2, if you're willing to deal with potential consumers not being able to run games on hardware that runs output from other engines just fine, with serious limitations on what platforms Construct-created games can run on, or switching engines. It's not realistic to expect users to wait years for a product they're paying for/subscribing for to hit a point where it's usable in commercial products. Even then, there's a strong chance it won't perform as well as other engines that are much farther ahead in terms of features and performance. Repeated, easily disproven claims that Construct can run as well as native apps doesn't help engender any real trust on the part of users towards Scirra, either. Misleading claims of what "benchmarks" show just makes it worse.

I can't really imagine how anyone thinks C3 is ready for prime time at this point. It needs months or potentially years more work before I'd consider it worth paying for. Even compared to C2, it's just so far behind where it needs to be. Maybe after the engine rewrite, which is really what should have been launched to begin with, and definitely after plugin support is full-featured and we see the more useful stuff come over from C2 that allows the kind of features a game engine should be expected to have.
Last edited by digitalsoapbox on Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:27 pm

I've only tried out C3 for a short period, but I found it slick and smart. Also, seeing it in my browser was great!

I am working on a game that may be able to utilise some C3 features, so will make the jump at the end of this month!
@bearboxmedia
www.bearboxmedia.com

Nintendo Wii U Developer using Construct 2
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Post » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:20 pm

I wonder what the specs are for the Macs Scirra is using to test C3? A lot of us Mac users are having issues.

I'm also concerned about C3 being Chrome exclusive. Where's the logic in that? The whole point of making games for the web is that your content is accessible by anyone with an internet connection. As of right now, it's only reasonable to test your games in Chrome. And who knows, maybe our games only work well for those Chrome users have the latest build of Chrome installed. This frustrates me.
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Post » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:00 am

Moot wrote:I wonder what the specs are for the Macs Scirra is using to test C3? A lot of us Mac users are having issues.

I'm also concerned about C3 being Chrome exclusive. Where's the logic in that? The whole point of making games for the web is that your content is accessible by anyone with an internet connection. As of right now, it's only reasonable to test your games in Chrome. And who knows, maybe our games only work well for those Chrome users have the latest build of Chrome installed. This frustrates me.


Eventuality C3 will be able to run on Firefox or even able to cross browser previews. Currently, all games if ran on chrome fine would be able to run on all the latest browsers just fine. The exports should have same results.
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