SteamOS announced - based on Linux

Chat about anything not covered in these forums, but keep it civil!

Post » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:35 am

LOL, that controller looks awesome.

I bet whoever designed it had an Intellivision as a kid:



I cant wait to get one of those babies!
B
29
S
8
G
4
Posts: 767
Reputation: 5,985

Post » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:00 am

I get the touch pads, but the buttons are in such a bad location. IThe buttons are too far indendented for practical use.

I don't mind the left touch pad. That looks fine...

actually. MEH and i mean MEH.

it looks real crappy for a mouse based game. It looks ok ish for a twin stick game. overall it just seems to be a poor design. I wish this classic controller design would just die. it sucks.

however I do like the TS center and the audio based haptics.jayderyu2013-09-28 01:07:03
B
92
S
18
G
9
Posts: 2,455
Reputation: 15,113

Post » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:09 pm

Just to give more insight about the controller, a friend of mine who has a professionally biased opinion. The most he has said himself is that he liked it when he played an FPS with it, it's very mappable, and linked me a post he knew that would explain what I would ask him about how it works

Super Meat Boy and Spelunky VS Steam Controller

You can play Super Meat Boy at an expert level on it. :D

The track pads can have multiple mapped actions based on location. (Duno how many max possible). So there is no loss in buttons.

Dual-stick games, how often do you use all the front buttons? Xbox gots 2shoulder 2trigger, a total of 4 non-front buttons. Steam Controller has 6 because they have 2back buttons.

Plus the fact that they're making it so you could potentially design your own controller, so manufacturers can make different shaped ones if people want to have a more classic layout (but you can just plug in that 360 controller anyway since it's a computer).


Since it's a track pad, it'll be better for mouse based games than a controller. I assume there will be different modes of mouse movement behavior (moving based on location on pad*like a thumbstick* VS moving based on movement on pad*like a track pad*)

One thing to think of is we always used trackpads with the side of our thumbs or forefingers and they always sucked because how awkward it was to use it. On a controller using your thumbs is more natural and with that you can use it more accurately. I would assume it increases it's potential to come close to mouse use, at least almost on par with track-ball mice for gaming.

[QUOTE=jayderyu]I wish this classic controller design would just die. it sucks.[/QUOTE] How is it a classic controller design? No one else would put all 4 font buttons and provide a larger area for the 2nd stick.

The reason the controller design hasn't changed is because the design they use now for the button count is efficient. A controller has to have grips, and the thumbs are the main tools we use for controllers (because fingers grip). Buttons are placed at comfortable grip points (shoulder, back), while the front controls are placed based on use and more comfortable position for that common use.

Before dual analog, the right area was used for buttons only, and no one has wanted to upset that because it works great. They added a 2nd set of shoulder buttons because they could not comfortably add them elsewhere. Same with pressing the thumbsticks down to get a button as well.

The Steam Controller upsets the standard by making it's "thumbsticks" take up more valuable real estate on the controller front, moved the front buttons to the middle because of their use in modern games, added another button to the back. If this was all it would be rather mediocre, but thankfully you can map the hell out of the track-pads for multiple functions to basically get a regular controller.Thndr2013-09-28 18:14:09
B
21
S
8
G
6
Posts: 346
Reputation: 4,891

Post » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:17 pm

[QUOTE=Thndr]You can play Super Meat Boy at an expert level on it. :D[/QUOTE]
Correction. This one guy can play Super Meat Boy on it without too much trouble. His experience is not necessarily translatable to everyone, or anyone, else. We'll have to see when more people get the chance to try it out.

I'm not convinced that the controller will be a viable option for anything involving twitch reflexes. The examples he gave where rather simplistic. Meat Boy, while requiring twitch reflexes, does not have a complex control scheme (by design), and Spelunky, which kinda does, is not as fastpaced.
A Megaman X/Zero title or similar which do require both twitch reflexes and have a slightly more complex control scheme, I doubt the controller would suffice for. But if it does, cool. Until we know though, I remain skeptical.inkBot2013-09-29 22:17:55
B
73
S
20
G
10
Posts: 524
Reputation: 9,896

Post » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:33 pm

It is nice that it is going to be open for others to develop and improve on.
I have a feeling MadCatz or Logitech will have some more traditional controllers to offer.
B
29
S
8
G
4
Posts: 767
Reputation: 5,985

Post » Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:31 pm

[QUOTE=inkBot] [QUOTE=Thndr]You can play Super Meat Boy at an expert level on it. :D[/QUOTE]
Correction. This one guy can play Super Meat Boy on it without too much trouble. His experience is not necessarily translatable to everyone, or anyone, else. We'll have to see when more people get the chance to try it out.

I'm not convinced that the controller will be a viable option for anything involving twitch reflexes. The examples he gave where rather simplistic. Meat Boy, while requiring twitch reflexes, does not have a complex control scheme (by design), and Spelunky, which kinda does, is not as fastpaced.
A Megaman X/Zero title or similar which do require both twitch reflexes and have a slightly more complex control scheme, I doubt the controller would suffice for. But if it does, cool. Until we know though, I remain skeptical.[/QUOTE] Well the blog article did post it that the only reason he'd choose the 360 controller over the steam controller is his fimilarity with the 360 controller, and if the steam controller was the only one after some sort of cosmic controller genocide, he wouldn't be mad to be stuck with the steam controller.

I understand exactly when he says he cannot play a game with sh*tty controlls, or with a sh*tty controller. So I would think it's safe to say it's very usable for a game like MMX/Z.

He did not complain about button mapping OTHER than no-nibs, so the tactile feedback itself for pushing those mapped "buttons" is good enough. If there was something off with the feedback or even button responses, he would've said something specific about it.

The real test for the button maps would be a fighting game, as it's one of the only ones you constantly use all front buttons rapidly in a game.
B
21
S
8
G
6
Posts: 346
Reputation: 4,891

Post » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:40 pm

You completely missed my entire point huh?

One guy saying it works fine may be an indicator that it's at the very least usable, but it's not indicative that the thing is going to work that well for everyone else.
B
73
S
20
G
10
Posts: 524
Reputation: 9,896

Post » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:35 am

Only time will tell...
B
3
Posts: 3
Reputation: 181

Post » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:11 pm

For those of you who do not know Super Meatboy, it is a simplistic platform game with a whopping 2 button control scheme. (one button is pretty much continually held to run fast like SuperMario)

Someone says they beat Tekkin or StreetFighter II with it, I will agree it is ready for mass production.

A console launch is no time to be experimenting with new controller setups. Nintendo got really lucky with the wii. I hope Valve has the same luck.

My only concern is major game deals with as-holes like rockstar and Activision. I have a feeling we will never see GTA 5 on SteamOS. It will probably be just like the deal they made with Red Dead Redemption, The Warriors, Call of duty 3, and many other Console-only titles.

Maybe Valve has a platform dependent title on the horizon? Will Half-Life 3 be their "Flag-ship" title? Maybe Left-4-Dead 3?

I have a feeling Gabn has some more tricks up his sleeve.
B
29
S
8
G
4
Posts: 767
Reputation: 5,985

Post » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:29 am

[QUOTE=Thndr]
[QUOTE=jayderyu]I wish this classic controller design would just die. it sucks.[/QUOTE]

How is it a classic controller design? No one else would put all 4 font buttons and provide a larger area for the 2nd stick.
[/QUOTE]

In the overall picture of the controller it's the same controller. In a small bits and bobs there some good and bad stuff. So let's start.


1. Ergonomics
The human body is capable, but not designed to hold the current standard controller design for long periods of time. In comparison notice how the mouse is moveable and not attached to the keyboard. We have seen track pads and bound pointer input to keyboards and laptops. but people still buy mice. Why? the input is separate and more in a natural relaxed shape for long use. In fact I'm in a reclining chair with the keyboard on my lap, and the mouse on a small side table. Is it work productive no, but damnd am I comfy :D But the classic controller is not a Keyboard and Mouse. that is very true.

While companies create well rounded shapes, padding and as comfortable that doesn't change the flaw in the inherent design.


[QUOTE=Thndr]
The reason the controller design hasn't changed is because the design they use now for the button count is efficient. A controller has to have grips, and the thumbs are the main tools we use for controllers (because fingers grip). Buttons are placed at comfortable grip points (shoulder, back), while the front controls are placed based on use and more comfortable position for that common use.
[/QUOTE]

2. Intuitive
An intuitive device lends a natural use that requires little instruction. Or is capable of using knowledge of prior devices to be applied to the current device. The PSOne increased mass appeal to game sales, but that was an increase of a smaller demographic range, but the content appealed to a larger market. What happened was that many older or very younger games were not in the same fold. There are always though who pushed through like my daughter, but overall it was less effective.

The SNES seemed to be the pinnacle of console broadest of range of age. Enough buttons used efficiently.



[QUOTE=Thndr]
Before dual analog, the right area was used for buttons only, and no one has wanted to upset that because it works great. They added a 2nd set of shoulder buttons because they could not comfortably add them elsewhere. Same with pressing the thumbsticks down to get a button as well.
[/QUOTE]



3. Efficiency
more does not make efficient. 18 buttons does not mean better.
The Wiiremote has a far larger range of input, intuitive when smartly used, yet less buttons. More potential game types, less input. That's effecient. Your use of Effecient is incorrect with the context of XBox, PS1/2/3, Steam controller and the entire ilk.

The Wii-remote and http://sixense.com/razerhydrapage are miles above the prior controller designs. They are both Intuitive and Efficient. Theya re capable of playing all genre of games, with out requiring 18 buttons.

I will list a side by side comparison the Wii-remote a common controller and the PS3 Core controller at the end.



[QUOTE=Thndr]
The Steam Controller upsets the standard by making it's "thumbsticks" take up more valuable real estate on the controller front, moved the front buttons to the middle because of their use in modern games, added another button to the back. If this was all it would be rather mediocre, but thankfully you can map the hell out of the track-pads for multiple functions to basically get a regular controller.[/QUOTE]

Actually I'm re-evaluating the Steam controller. I think it's going to be apex of the design model. i just know that the design model is old and we need to drop the entire thing. But I will agree with this. It's the best of the of the same bunch.

Weeeee-Remote+ vs PS3 input comparison and it's potential and effectiveness of games they can and can't do.

]---- PS3 Sixaxis
3 system buttons
3 Distinct analogue control input
1(6) velocity(6 direction)
1 dpad
4 face buttons
2 analogue clicks
2 shoulder buttons
2 shoulder linear analogue
2 shoulder click
* using the dpad or buttons swaps active use of 2 analogue

20 values of input


Games it can't or will do poorly
everything that is based around pointers.
RTS, Point and Click, Touch based games
Games of note it can't do in categories
Elite Beat Agents, Trauma Center, Warcraft, Starcraft, Sam and Max...

Games that the controller does well
Fighting games like Street Fighter. FPS are significantly better with Keyboard and mouse. Controller doesn't get credit.


]---- Wii-Remote+(I would use Sixence, but it's not as common)
3 system buttons
1 POINTER < DING DING DING
1 XY analogue(left hand, no conflict with the XYZ Analogue)
2 XYZ analogue(no conflict to use)
2(12) velocity analogue(6 direction each)
2 shoulder buttons on left(admit there is no analogue :( )
1 dpad(right conflict with 1 button)
2 primary buttons(A conflicts with the dpad)
2 secondary buttons(conflict with A and dpad)
--------
1 speaker
1 expansion port

16 values of input

Games it can do
All pointer games effectively, FPS only a little worse than Mouse(mouse is king), Trauma centre. Then there is the entire new genre of gaming potential that is being missed. Driving, Flying, 3D space.

For simple games it can detach the chuck for convenience of simpler games. The wand shape with the pointer lend itself very well for user media interface witch the classic controller design does not. Pointers just work better for media and interface control.

what the controller is weak at
Street Fighter with it's 6 button style. nothing else.

broad taste of immersive gaming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e15x7df7CA

game made better by WR+ more tactical and deep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JDgo4DuWBE

one of the best and surprisingly immersion fist fighting games I have ever played. looks simple, but when your playing it's fantastic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia0GFg2xzCA


Now if Valve based there controller design on the Wii-remote or Sixence. It would be accessible, intuitive, get all the awesome bits that SteamController is coming out with, fix up the wii-remotes weak spots and bingo. APEX of game controllers. But nope. It's mired in poor ergonmic design, over complication of input.

However I do love the touch based audio haptic pads. I think those by far are some of the best input ever.

So on a game application comparison Shooters are pretty simple to map. However probably one of the more complicated movement are space flight sims.

So just doing the space flight controls
360 and Steambox
Left Analog XY(Pitch/Yaw)
Right Analog XY (roll, face)
sacrifice face buttons for motion input(if needed)

PS3
Tilt control(pitch/roll/yaw)
Left face
right camera
sacrifice face buttons for motion input(if needed)

Wii-remote
Left Tilt(pitch/roll/yaw)
Left XY camera
Right Analogue face
let alone we still have an analogue pointer to use for accurate shooting
no sacrifice of buttons for motion input.


So my professional opinion based on experiences of controller models. Companies are barking up the wrong tree as new consoles come out.
B
92
S
18
G
9
Posts: 2,455
Reputation: 15,113

PreviousNext

Return to Open Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest