The devil's advocate: Status quo of HTML5 gaming

Discussion and feedback on Construct 2

Post » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:16 am

But... node-webkit is the export option of choice for C2 Windows deployment. If CC can only produce Windows executables then isn't that what you need to compare it to? Forget about inconsistency between browsers; CC could never do browsers anyway. Unless I'm missing something.
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Post » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:11 pm

How come that people bring CC into play? I thought the headline made the context clear: "Status quo of HTML5 gaming". The current state of HTML5 gaming. As far as I know CC has nothing to do with HTML5.
Is it the first paragraph of the original post? It is just an optional introduction to tell you a bit more about me, to let you know my relation to the Scirra products. That's all.

[QUOTE=thehen]I've not run into this problem myself, and I'd be interested in seeing an example. I bet 50p I can fix it :D[/QUOTE] Well, you'd see it if you'd have the affected system. For example, Firefox doesn't support web audio on WinXP (as well as WebGL) and their workaround seems to be just triggering a play command with all issues (loading the sound to RAM first, etc.). But that's a guess. The gap however isn't. And I don't doubt you'll find a workaround. I might even find one myself. But that's not the point.

[QUOTE=thehen]It doubles the filesize, but only the relevent audio is downloaded by the user. When packaging as native you can just remove the unnecessary audio files.[/QUOTE] And this is one fine example of what I meant when saying that C2 is making the situation a lot better. It takes care of any conversion for you and handles the files while developing. It's the merit of C2, but doesn't change the status of HTML5 gaming. C2 shouldn't be forced to hold 2 compressed audio formats ready, when 1 is more than sufficient.

[QUOTE=thehen]IE does now support WebGL and I've not had issue with Firefox myself (FirefoxOS on the other hand...).[/QUOTE] There's only preliminary WebGL support in the IE 11 preview. And IE 11 doesn't support Vista or XP. The same goes for Firefox: It only supports WebGL on recent OS.

[QUOTE=jayderyu]1. Apparently HTML5/JS can't create the same gaming experience. I will contest this. Language is not relevant to gaming experience. Developers and what they can manage with the tools they have hand matter. I assure a good team can provide some fantastic gaming experience with HTML5/JS. Keep in mind that Unity was in the same situation in the very early days. No one used Unity for "serious" games until a few major releases came and developers really picked up the steam.[/QUOTE] I didn't say that a good team wouldn't be able to provide some fantastic gaming experience with HTML5/JS. I stated that this wouldn't be the same for all gamers. Unity, on the other hand, is a fine example for an encapsulated solution. It doesn't matter if the gamer uses XP or Win8, Chrome or Firefox, etc. The developers don't need to waste time finding workarounds for implicitness.

[QUOTE=jayderyu]2. HTML5/JS are not browsers. They are languages. The complaint is the run time environments(RTE) of the language. This is valid. however if you abandon the idea of supporting different RTEs and instead focus on a single RTE(NodeWebkit, CocoonJS...) you will make life easier. If you MUST abide by the limitations of supporting many RTEs.[/QUOTE] 'HTML5 gaming' implies you're developing for HTML5, not for some browser. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the developer to handle all the browsers' just partly support of HTML5. It's the responsibility of those companies to keep uniform standards.
If you buy an audio CD you will be able to play it on each and every CD player, no matter the facturer. You won't happen to see some machine saying "Oh, I don't fully support it, so I'll only play in 8kHz/mono."

[QUOTE=jayderyu]Keep in mind that there were game programmers working with with only 256kb disc storage, 640kb ram, 16 colours(and i'm being generous). If people can make robust RPG's that founded companies like Sqaure, Enix... so on. Then I'm pretty sure that everybody here can overcome the hurdles of browser RTE with 2gb+ram, 256mb+gpu, 2terabyte hard drives, digital distribution.[/QUOTE] I very well know those 640kB games. I started programming my first game on a Commodore Pet 2001, even more limitations. And I totally agree that we can overcome hurdles. My point is, that there shouldn't be hurdles. Those are just the results from only 4 companies each trying to dictate the other.

Basically, what I experienced was the hope of a standard that doesn't exist yet. If you develop for flash, your game will run the same wherever flash is supported. If you develop it for Unity, it will run the same wherever Unity is supported. If you develop for Unreal Engine 3 (yes, it is web enabled), it will run the same wherever Unreal Engine is supported. But if you develop for HTML5 ...?
One of the best known claims is "All you need is a browser." Far from that.
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Post » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:07 pm

[QUOTE=tulamide] How come that people bring CC into play? I thought the headline made the context clear: "Status quo of HTML5 gaming". The current state of HTML5 gaming. As far as I know CC has nothing to do with HTML5.
Is it the first paragraph of the original post? It is just an optional introduction to tell you a bit more about me, to let you know my relation to the Scirra products. That's all.

[/QUOTE]

Ah I did miss something :P But like Captain said, if you use wrappers like node-webkit or cocoonjs you'll get the consistency that browsers lack no? Unless you need web deployment that is.
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Post » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:59 pm

I remember a students rant on Charcoal sketching VS oil paints and watercolors.

His argument... Charcoal makes makes messy, blurry surreal images in his hands. And he can do much more realistic images with watercolors and Oil paints.

He went on to boldly state "Only surrealists, and the untalented use charcoals."

I then introduced him to Escher http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/gallery.htm

Seriously... It is not the medium, it is the artist insight and talent that makes a masterpiece.

If a person can not make something great with the tools provided, they either need more practice, or they need to choose a different medium.
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Post » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:13 pm

I'm sorry but comparing art (charcoal v.s. ink v.s. oils) to a development platform or runtime environment for software is a ludicrous analogy. Does the paper or the canvas limit the number of charcoal strokes you can use versus oil strokes? Does the frame you hang your art in to display it limit it to only being compatible with watercolors and not oils? Is a viewer not able to view your artwork if it's in inks but not in charcoal?No. Not only is this like comparing apples to oranges, but it's comparing apples to buildings. Vast differences.
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Post » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:18 pm

[QUOTE=wizaerd] I'm sorry but comparing art (charcoal v.s. ink v.s. oils) to a development platform or runtime environment for software is a ludicrous analogy. Does the paper or the canvas limit the number of charcoal strokes you can use versus oil strokes? Does the frame you hang your art in to display it limit it to only being compatible with watercolors and not oils? Is a viewer not able to view your artwork if it's in inks but not in charcoal?No. Not only is this like comparing apples to oranges, but it's comparing apples to buildings. Vast differences.[/QUOTE]

You have a point, but please ask yourself this :


Can you successfully make an color ink drawing with a piece of charcoal? Well no...

* Can you make HTML5 render a realtime 3D scene like exactly like Battlefield 3? Well no...

* Can you make cool fun games with HTML5, yes.

* Can you make Charcoal drawings with Construct 2, No...

Comparing HTML 5 with anything else is like comparing apples to oranges.

HTML5 does not act like Flash or Unity, because it is not Flash or Unity.


HTML5 is an art medium, and can be compared to other art mediums like Charcoal, IDTech4, Flash , Nude Kangaroo photography composition and Unity quite well.

If one is trying to do something that is in the scope of HTML 5 and they are failing, then they may need to work on their approach rather than blaming the art medium. (or the Kangaroo)
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Post » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:18 pm

[QUOTE=jojoe]Can you successfully make an color ink drawing with a piece of charcoal? Well no...[/QUOTE] Why should anyone?...

[QUOTE=jojoe]Can you make HTML5 render a realtime 3D scene like exactly like Battlefield 3? Well no...[/QUOTE] I read all posts here a thousand times, but hell no, I just can't find where anyone claimed HTML5 to do so...

[QUOTE=jojoe]Can you make cool fun games with HTML5, yes.[/QUOTE] No. You can make a cool fun game with HTML5 on your system. If it's still fun for the customers depends on how your cool game is interpreted by browsers and operating systems. Playing your fun cool game on WinXP with Firefox turns it into a laggy 10 fps / sound stuttering torture. I doubt that poor customer will share your opinion of a cool fun game...

[QUOTE=jojoe]Can you make Charcoal drawings with Construct 2, No...[/QUOTE] Makes no sense at all. Construct 2 was never the topic...

[QUOTE=jojoe]Comparing HTML 5 with anything else is like comparing apples to oranges.[/QUOTE] Comparing the consitent behavior of HTML5 over different browsers/os with other competitors is the most important part, when someone really wants it to be competitive on the game market...

[QUOTE=jojoe]HTML5 does not act like Flash or Unity, because it is not Flash or Unity.[/QUOTE] No one wants it to act like something else. It should just be an implicitness that it shares the same consistency, if wanting to be a competitor in the game market...

[QUOTE=jojoe]HTML5 is an art medium, and can be compared to other art mediums like Charcoal, IDTech4, Flash , Nude Kangaroo photography composition and Unity quite well.[/QUOTE] Contradicts your last paragraph, and is not even true. HTML5 an art medium? Better read wikipedia. HTML5 is a markup language. No more, no less...

[QUOTE=jojoe]If one is trying to do something that is in the scope of HTML 5 and they are failing, then they may need to work on their approach rather than blaming the art medium. (or the Kangaroo)[/QUOTE]So, you mean that playing a looped sample that only gets heard looped if used with one specific browser, while another just ignores the looping order, it is my fault that the second one doesn't support the HTML5 standard, and I therefore have to work on my approach?

That's a funny post!
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Post » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:45 am

http://www.unrealengine.com/html5/
Maybe not BF3 but still pretty impressive for some "browser embedded".
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Post » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:26 am

Except when I go to the link, it says it requires FireFox 22. and not supported in the most current version of Chrome.
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Post » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:31 am

I totally agree with tulamide!
I remember ages back when I first sent my game to someone after knowingly getting full 60fps in Chrome and not much going on in the game, and they ended up getting like 15fps in Chrome (their machine could get 30fps out of a game like Left4Dead and 50-60fps out of Terraria).
I was so sad, til I realised that shrinking Chrome's window size boosted the framerate (it had to be shrunk so the game was like 320x300 to get 60fps lol), which was weird since Terraria runs nicely on their machine at 1360x768.

But yeah I open my project on Chrome these days on my mid-range computer and get 60fps, but sometimes get SFX not playing, whereas I load it on Firefox, and I get choppy 20fps for some reason, but the music and SFX play fine... I don't even know why lol. I do like how there's no incompatibility at ALL with how things display as far as I'm aware (I think the HSL shader was being weird depending on browser but I think that got sorted out), so sprites and the actual events run great on each browser. Lol but when it comes to wrappers, you realise the Button object don't work, some physics functions aren't working (I'm looking at you CocoonJS ).
I'm not super involved with the mechanics of how HTML5 works and whatnot, but I'll give my opinion anyway:
HTML5 is young, but it's rapidly developing. Seems that all browsers adopted it, all the new consoles are adopting it, heck, Unreal even supports it like Kyatric posted. All I'm going to do, is wait patiently...
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*1 year later, HTML6 comes out, not compatible with HTML5*
Damnit!
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