What payment option would you like to see for Construct 3?

Post » Tue May 09, 2017 9:53 am

@blurymind I've posted these price models on Fusion forums. I was planning to post them here, but you did it instead of me. Thanks :lol:

blurymind wrote:Who in the world would go through all that effort simply to run it for another 10 minutes :lol:

but yeah you are right, the clock thing is easy to cheat, unless you have a user login system - which you do.

Exactly what I was thinking. Also, notice that the number of events an user can have can be modified server-side (like now the unregistered users have 25 while registered ones have 40) ;)
But overall that idea is stupid. It kills the creativity forcing you to move fast, and I don't even want to think what will you do if you encounter a bug.

@SnipG Yes, GameMaker is a lot more expensive, but it actually delivers. Just look at the showcase (there are some popular titles). Also, don't forget, you will pay 100$/year, if you use C3 for 4-5 years, you will get close to the price of Game Maker (with mobile exporters). After that time you will notice that you only rented C3 instead of owning Game Maker.
In my opinion you get less with C3 in the long run.

@michael Good advice, I'm already doing that. Clickteam just made it clear that F3 will not have subscriptions. It's obvious that C3 is "take-or-leave" offer.

From what I see, even at this stage, C3 has monopoly over Chromebooks and Android tablets. So there is a market for it, but not for me and probably more than half of this community.
B
49
S
15
G
6
Posts: 536
Reputation: 7,199

Post » Tue May 09, 2017 9:54 am

We're going in circles again. We covered all this in the other thread.

I genuinely think it's a perfectly fair deal. It's a fantastic product and it's still pretty cheap: you get all features and exporters, including a build system, for less than the cost of a build system alone (PhoneGap Build). Nobody is completely locked out of their project; it just disables some features (not even all of them; you can still edit layouts and such). We have already talked about how we plan to have a maintenance subscription to help people who just need to do light maintenance so they don't have to go for a full subscription to make changes after their subscription expires.

Since I honestly think this is a fair and reasonable deal, at this point I suspect some people's motivation is only to whip up as much of a frenzy on the forum as possible. If you really think this is an unfair deal and you don't like it, you don't have to buy it. You can go somewhere else. But you might end up with a lesser product that ends up costing more for the same features. It's up to you.

If your only goal is to bring up the same old points we've discussed previously in order to whip up a frenzy, I'm afraid this thread will probably end up locked too.
Scirra Founder
B
403
S
238
G
89
Posts: 24,654
Reputation: 196,145

Post » Tue May 09, 2017 9:57 am

TGeorgeMihai wrote:
blurymind wrote:but yeah you are right, the clock thing is easy to cheat, unless you have a user login system - which you do.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I'm not sure why I have to point this out, but you can sign up new accounts for free, which entirely circumvents that.
Scirra Founder
B
403
S
238
G
89
Posts: 24,654
Reputation: 196,145

Post » Tue May 09, 2017 3:26 pm

Ashley wrote:
TGeorgeMihai wrote:
blurymind wrote:but yeah you are right, the clock thing is easy to cheat, unless you have a user login system - which you do.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I'm not sure why I have to point this out, but you can sign up new accounts for free, which entirely circumvents that.


I meant the timer would imply if you already had a subscription and the subscription ran out. That means it would be a former paying customer who had already spent $99 on C3 and just wanted to update their game. The limited time in part is suppose to be a bit troublesome to encourage the user to subscribe again, but not completely punish them for not being able to afford it. Previous paid customer account = free time to fix bugs.

That last part about timers for free users wasn't really thought out, I admit. I just came up with that as I typed my suggestion for previous subscribers. But whatever. It was only a suggestion. I wasn't trying to cause a frenzy or anything. It's insane how out of control these threads can get. People get worked up over the most insignificant things... :roll:
Last edited by Moot on Tue May 09, 2017 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
B
16
S
7
Posts: 190
Reputation: 1,823

Post » Tue May 09, 2017 3:40 pm

Ashley wrote:I genuinely think it's a perfectly fair deal. It's a fantastic product and it's still pretty cheap: you get all features and exporters, including a build system, for less than the cost of a build system alone (PhoneGap Build). Nobody is completely locked out of their project; it just disables some features (not even all of them; you can still edit layouts and such). We have already talked about how we plan to have a maintenance subscription to help people who just need to do light maintenance so they don't have to go for a full subscription to make changes after their subscription expires.


Hey Ashley, here is an idea: you offer a Phonegap-type build system for Construct 3. Why not allow any html/js/canvas developer out there to not only build C3 apps, but also regular html/js/canvas based projects, just like Cocoon and PhoneGap?

So in effect a Phaser developer might want to sign up for Construct 3, and use the Construct 3 build tools to upload and build their own code.

This may open up new revenue streams for you, and Construct 3 gets introduced to js developers.
B
7
S
1
Posts: 29
Reputation: 483

Post » Tue May 09, 2017 6:14 pm

There's only so much of posts saying things like "go use a different product" or "they're dumb lol" that I'm willing to take on the forum, and I also feel this thread has run its course. It's already going in circles with the same points being made. With Construct 3 we made some bold changes and yes, those changes may not be for everybody, but we are going to stick with the plan for the time being. That's not to say we'll stick with it forever, there's always scope to make changes in future, but we want to at least see how things work out with our current plans.

Different product discussion is healthy. Competition gives incentive to make a product (rental) better. I have already moved on to other alternatives for my game making hobbies. They cost much less, and are more feature rich. They do not include the event system -- but really the event system is just a GUI glorified scripting language. Technically it could easily be converted to a basic typed out scripting language and function the same. This isn't saying that it sucks, it certainly does not, but once users realize that languages like python or lua really are not a huge step forward in complexity with frameworks, it is not a big deal.

The construct brand is heavily regarded as a hobby tool because it lacks strongly perceived features that are vital. Whether these perceptions are correct or incorrect doesn't matter, in the end Scirra's income model will or will not verify this. People bringing up other tools is to help bring the spotlight on what construct needs to mature. This is literally what big companies pay for -- real solid feedback on what their product needs to sell more. Lashing out against these feature requests and ideas, is directly lowing your product's perception and potential income. Real and reliable exporters (native) are a great example of this. From the tone of your post, it is clear this frustrates you, but is it the fact that people are bringing up other products, or the fact that yours is lacking necessary functionality for their needs?

We are thinking about a way to allow previously subscribed users to more easily use Construct 3, so they don't have to pay a whole year subscription for some light maintenance. We don't want to make any firm announcements right now so we can keep our options open, but I am keen to provide something on this front. I must also emphasise that even with an expired subscription, you can still access your project and all its artwork, sounds, music and so on, so you can extract that and use it elsewhere if you want to.

You can no longer edit the project. Yes you can extract your resources to use on a different engine or framework. I fail to understand why you are not acknowledging that this is a lockout on the project. What if I am a huge lego hobbyist -- I rent an apartment, and start building a replica of my city. One day I forget to pay rent and am literally locked out of the apartment. Yes, I can still see in through the windows, but I can no longer interact with my creation -- without continuing to pay rent, forever. I am now locked out of continuing my work in this apartment. I would need to get a different apartment, or pay the rent (extortion fee)

I'd also add that as a subscription, I think Construct 3 is still great value. You can use it for years and years accessing all features and all exporters before it gets close to the price of the all-exporters price for other tools. It's also cheaper than the subscription for PhoneGap Build alone. So not only are we going to provide a build service similar to PhoneGap Build, but it's also cheaper, and comes with an entire game development IDE as well. The pricing isn't just for one feature, it covers everything, but I think that perspective does show - it's still not a particularly expensive product.


Other products offer a choice on exporters. Yes, they are expensive, unless you explore open source tools, frameworks, and engines. What we users have to go by is actual and factual history. We have paid a one time fee to purchase the product and knew what we were getting. Now you are asking that we just trust you, because you are going to bring all kinds of great new features. And this requires that we are locked in for an entire year subscription. After six months, if -- for example you do not deliver.. then what? I guess we have six months longer to use a product that did not deliver, but we dont have to re-subscribe right? This subscription thing is gross and is an awful business model. It is great for companies, and disgusting for the consumers. Renting software sucks, and the poll shows it.

Remember that if you're keen to see major new features like 3D, timelines, modularity or collaboration, we're very much limited by our resources, and it's difficult to make the jump to hiring new developers if we have a less stable income.

3D? I mean really? After how many years of the same rock hard cement answers about 3D, now we are exploring this option. Modularity and collaboration -- if you want these features you will succumb to our demands and use our subscription model. Again, once subscribed -- they will come, whenever we are ready. So please -- essentially, PRE-ORDER our product -- we will deliver - we promise.

It seems to me a more stable income would be expanding your customer base -- not extorting the current base for rent. I would personally love to pay an additonal 25-50 dollars for an official scirra 3D addon to Construct 2 as an example. Then again, there are plenty of people who dont care about 3D and would not be required to purchase it. This would be a great model -- official addons for things like: 3D, timelines, modularity, and collaboration. Being locked out of a product that you do not own is filthy -- while I understand your reasoning for it, I personally do not agree with it -- and I am not alone.

Finally I'm sure some people are going to point at this thread and accuse us for shutting out discussion of the topic. I'd like to point out that this thread has been open since February 1 - over three months - and has nearly two hundred replies, including several from myself. After this time of allowing all this discussion I believe there is little else to be gained from allowing this thread to continue. I have read nearly every post in this thread, and as many as I can from the Construct 3 forum, and often posts from other forums and websites. We have heard everyone's points, in some cases I've directly responded to them, and now it has simply come down to re-hashing the same things. Even if it doesn't make sense to anyone else, we have a clear plan and a vision for where we want to go. I'm confident in time our decisions will become clearer, much as the choice of HTML5 over Flash originally mystified many but ended up being the right way to go. I'd like to thank everyone for their energy and feedback, and please be assured we'll still be listening and posting here on the forum, as we continue to develop Construct 3 in future.

You started your post with the almighty I am tired of hearing something I dont like -- dont force my hand speech. Again, I appreciate you have a clear plan on the direction you want to go. Shutting down everyone else' conversation about the issue seems childish. If you do not like the discussion that people are having, why have a forums? Is it supposed to be all rainbows and sunshine with Scirra worship? When a significant portion of your community disagrees with you, they will find a way to have a conversation about it.

I find this new direction that Scirra is going in to be very disappointing. I came back to check in to see what was going on -- read through the previous discussions, and am saddened by the result. On a personal level -- the Scirra team are great people, and I wish them the best in their future endeavors. Unfortunately, I will not be a part of those.
B
8
S
1
Posts: 62
Reputation: 1,212

Post » Tue May 09, 2017 10:41 pm

I wholeheartedly agree with @twinsonian 's post.

@ashley why are you trying to make it look like the lockout isn't that bad. It really is. The event sheet is everything - the game's whole logic is in there! You are trying to paint this in a different light than what it is - saying things like it being "light limitations".

Look, I know you want to force people to keep being subscribed, but why not have some faith in the updates that you deliver for that instead, huh? You have a good track record for it with construct2 and people know already that you can deliver good updates.
Why don't you trust that to do the subscription sales alone? Software updates really can keep sales going - it's proven and is still the most common model used - even with the subscription type payment!

If you already have the attitude that you also need lockouts to do that, then that shows that really you are not all that certain in scirra's ability to make sales on the base of putting out some great updates alone. :?

It tells me that you need the lockout, because your updates alone are not going to convince people to , well - pay to keep getting updates for another year.

I simply can't comprehend where that fear comes from in you - as scirra as a company has never actually tried it before! You have never sold a single build version upgrade- correct me if I am wrong :geek:
Last edited by blurymind on Tue May 09, 2017 10:55 pm, edited 8 times in total.
B
40
S
15
G
4
Posts: 426
Reputation: 5,870

Post » Tue May 09, 2017 10:41 pm

Tom wrote:We are listening - I think what a lot of people want is not for us to actually listen (which we are doing) but do something different than we've planned.


Errmmmm, that what threads like this are about - getting Scirra to change their plans - which you will not do, hence you are not listening.

Tom wrote: Which threads have been unfairly locked?


The last thread Ashley locked.

No thread needs to be locked unless people are at each others throat. Just because a discussion is going in circles does not justify locking a thread. A thread will run it's course by itself, will eventually die down to a few, and finally die out - there is no need to lock them.

And now Ashley wants to lock this one?


Tom wrote:Haven't banned anyone for voicing their opinion if they keep it civil.


lamar?...

I didn't read anything from him that warranted being banned, yes maybe he was hashing up the same points, but that just goes back to my first point in this reply.

Unless of course I may have missed a post or thread where he warranted that action being taken.

- - - - - -

What is clear from these threads, is the majority of people do not like or want SAAS, in fact they would prefer to pay more to avoid it - it is really that simple. The big players like Adobe can take that rout since they have bucket loads of businesses that will support that model, and in the case of their software, and what it used to cost, has made it a much better deal.

Whether Construct - which as stated by many, many times, is mostly a hobbyist tool - can survive going down that rout remains to be seen.

One thing for sure is the sub model your have developed is not expensive, but to many it is not friendly, and has alienated a great number of your current user-base, and I think quite a few are feeling abandoned by Scirra.

Despite Ashley's comment about people trying to create a frenzy - which is a little crazy imo - that's not what people are trying to achieve. They just don't like the course Scirra have taken, and yes they want Scirra to change their plans. That as said before is why threads like this are started.
If it can be done, someone on the web will show you how to do it!

CDASI Games Mentality Break Splat-a-bug FlapFleet Challenge
B
35
S
13
G
7
Posts: 363
Reputation: 7,283

Post » Wed May 10, 2017 1:27 am

After the many posts and the locked thread, it seems the best option for Construct users now is to wait and see how the subscription turns out. Scirra really wants to try it, and if it works out then that's great for them (and us) !

If not, they'll hopefully have a backup plan ready in time :)

But, I would say it will be one or two years from now before we know for sure (eg: many people might try one or two years before trying something else, so it's still pretty risky for Scirra if big/long-term projects aren't being made).

That's okay though, we've all been waiting many years already for HTML5 to be the high performance multi-platform export format of choice for 2D gaming anyway, what's the harm of waiting a few more? :P
Construct Classic - Examples Kit Dropbox is a pile of trash and if you need my old files PM me! :)
B
127
S
43
G
18
Posts: 2,240
Reputation: 20,592

Post » Wed May 10, 2017 3:21 am

Jayjay wrote:After the many posts and the locked thread, it seems the best option for Construct users now is to wait and see how the subscription turns out. Scirra really wants to try it, and if it works out then that's great for them (and us) !

If not, they'll hopefully have a backup plan ready in time :)

But, I would say it will be one or two years from now before we know for sure (eg: many people might try one or two years before trying something else, so it's still pretty risky for Scirra if big/long-term projects aren't being made).

That's okay though, we've all been waiting many years already for HTML5 to be the high performance multi-platform export format of choice for 2D gaming anyway, what's the harm of waiting a few more? :P


The problem with this I think is that at the moment there is actually very little incentive to subscribe. The overlap between C2 and C3 is vast, and who knows how long it will take C3 to mature enough plugin wise for many to transfer their projects over? I say this as someone who is knee deep in 3 projects, all of which use plugins qhich quite frankly should be part of the base construct package. If I subscribe in the near future I'll pretty much just be throwing $99 away (or whatever discount I get from being a customer) the only incentive to subscription at the moment is support of Scirra's vision, but unfortunately some of this vision I'm not interested in. I think people will continue to discuss and criticise this model and that won't go away. We're not stirring a frenzy, the fact is it doesn't fit the needs or wants of the greater community.
B
67
S
25
G
4
Posts: 212
Reputation: 7,084

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests